Controversial opinions

[Daren]

Pokémon is a franchise for kids!

Masuda says it isn't specifically for kids

https://twitter.com/drlavayt/status/1374361582432481282

So I don't think there's a problem with some of it's work being aimed at older audiences. If anything I think it's expected when we have them claiming it isn't supposed to be just for children.

I say 02 hit the wall after the Digimon Emperor arc because that's when creative issues boiled over. It's why you had plot threads like Daemon and and Dagomon lead to nowhere. Atsushi Maekawa and Genki Yoshimura were both head writers (as opposed to having one head writer like every other show) with different writing styles and it shows. Satoru Nishizono, the original head writer for Adventure, left because he did not want a sequel series. Tensions ran high enough that staff threatened to quit over the show like Chiaki Konaka. Tamers owes its existence to background idiocy.

Okay so this explains a lot about 02, which I recall feeling rather bizarre and unfocused compared to the first season.

Edit: Wow that was an awkward editing error...

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Blaine said that because he didn't a literal child to die trying to beat Mewtwo. It's your standard "stay outta this and leave it to the grown-ups" line you hear in most kids adventure media (including the anime!), and I think you grossly misinterpreted it.

Could be. Still, I do prefer the anime over the manga for many other reasons too, like the more relatable protagonist angle I mentioned.

 

[Norzan]

Matsuno says it isn't specifically for kids
https://twitter.com/drlavayt/status/1374361582432481282

And even without Masuda saying this, the franchise is not just targeted at kids mainly for the fact that Gamefreak puts a lot of focus into the competitive aspect. You think a lot of kids are actually gonna be interested in stats, strategies and what pokemon to bring? No, they don't care for any of that, they care only about catching and battling with their favorites. It's the more older players that actually care for competitive and Gamefreak knows this, hence why they have Worlds and competitive seasons.

That means that the franchise focusing on more mature content on certains parts of it is not out of place because the franchise isn't just for kids, it's for everybody.

 

[Enzo]

Whether its Game!Red, Manga!Red or Origins!Red, Red is just a completely overrated character that some people in this fandom treat as if he's a god among men. Even the Pokemon Company themselves treat him as if we, the audience, are supposed react in awe whenever he appears. As if beating Team Rocket makes him the most bad ass trainer within the whole series.(Let's just ignore how the Sun and Moon protags had to deal with all the evil team leaders and their respective legendaries.)

I know this convo is old as helllll but It's actually pretty hilarious when you stop to think about how Red is arguably the least impressive of all the MCs because every single one that came after him did more than he ever did.

Red might have won against all the Gym Leaders, the E4 and defeated the Champion, but so did every single other mc since then, so it's not like doing that sets him apart from the others: it's actually a basic requirement for all the mcs. Well... I guess except Victor/Gloria, but you can make the case that they didn't defeated their E4 for the simple reason that Galar doesn't actually have an E4.

He didn't even brought TR down, he just scared them away for a while and they came back, and it was actually Ethan/Lyra who did it, not him. Honestly? He was actually pretty lucky he could have a largely peaceful journey back in his day, as he barely had troubles with his evil tem nor he had to save the region/world from some sort of cataclysmic event.

In fact:

Spoiler: comfort

• Ethan/Lyra -> Brought TR down and out, became Johto's Champion, traveled to Kanto and also beat all the gyms there and became Kanto's Champion, and even defeated Red;
• Brendan/May -> Stopped Team Aqua/Magma, stopped Kyogre/Groundon, saved the region/world, became Champion, and won the Battle Frontier in Emerald;
• Lucas/Dawn -> Defeated Tem Galactic, halted the destruction of the universe through the Legendaries, won against Cynthia, and even won the BF in Gen 4;
• Hilbert/Hilda -> Dismantled Team Plasma, defeated N, was recognized as a hero by the Legendaries, won against the E4 twice and also defeated Alder;
• Nate/Rosa -> Finished the New Team Plasma for good, became Champion, stopped Unova from getting frozen;
• Calem/Serena -> Ends Lysandre's rampage and stops the ultimate weapon from firing again, becomes Champion, helps AZ reunite with his Floette, and even becomes Grand Duch/Duchess at the Battle Chateau;
• Elio/Selene -> Defeates Team Skull and the Aether Foundation, stops Lusamine's madness, becomes the first ever Alolan Champion, and even helps the International Police in the end by capturing the Ultra Beasts;
• Victor/Gloria -> They stop Chairman Rose, stop Eternatus, defeat Leon, stop Sordward and Shielbert, complete the Isle of Armor and defeat an old Champion, they help Calyrex and the horses, conduct all the mysteries of the exploration team, and even win the Galarian All Star Tournament.

Basically, my point is: Red isn't impressive at all and manages to be the least impressive of all the mcs. He's also the only mc to be defeated out of the Champion position, while all the others (except Hilbert/Hilda, who decided to leave Unova), are still in their positions.

 

[FluffleFi]

And sadly GameFreak will likely never bring up the other MCs or their accomplishments, its gotta be all about Red and how strong of a trainer he is.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Not sure if this is a hot take but Ash’s “depression” arc after he lost to Bea was completely unnecessary. It’s repeating the same stuff over and over again and Ash needs to learn that he just lost with a beginner Riolu and that he just needs more training. In XY I love Ash’s depression arc as Ash was depressed because his overconfidence in Greninja resulted in him loosing and doubting his bond with Greninja and himself as a trainer, and in DP, his loss to Paul at Lake Acuity caused him to be upset as he questioned whose methods really were right.

 

[flowerfun]

Not sure if this is a hot take but Ash’s “depression” arc after he lost to Bea was completely unnecessary. It’s repeating the same stuff over and over again and Ash needs to learn that he just lost with a beginner Riolu and that he just needs more training. In XY I love Ash’s depression arc as Ash was depressed because his overconfidence in Greninja resulted in him loosing and doubting his bond with Greninja and himself as a trainer, and in DP, his loss to Paul at Lake Acuity caused him to be upset as he questioned whose methods really were right.

Ya. That's a major issue with a lot of the newer gens of the anime (Gens 5-8), they often recycle and rehash the same ideas over and over again. Pignite and Gengar's backstories are rehashes of Charizard and Infernape's (They all were abandoned by an asshole trainer for not being strong enough, or in Gengar's case, causing bad luck), Chloe is a worse version of Serena (Both have arcs about finding out whatever they want to do in the future, except Serena got good development for her arc meanwhile Chloe's felt like an afterthought), Trip is a rehach of Gary and Paul, etc. XY was also guilty of this to an extent but it at least tried to do something new with the ideas it reused (Such as Ash's depression arc and Serena going for showcases), so it is the least bad offender in this regard. But still, there are only so many times you can repeat an idea before it becomes stale, repetitive, tiresome, and frankly predictable.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Ya. That's a major issue with a lot of the newer gens of the anime (Gens 5-8), they often recycle and rehash the same ideas over and over again. Pignite and Gengar's backstories are rehashes of Charizard and Infernape's (They all were abandoned by an asshole trainer for not being strong enough, or in Gengar's case, causing bad luck), Chloe is a worse version of Serena (Both have arcs about finding out whatever they want to do in the future, except Serena got good development for her arc meanwhile Chloe's felt like an afterthought), Trip is a rehach of Gary and Paul, etc. XY was also guilty of this to an extent but it at least tried to do something new with the ideas it reused (Such as Ash's depression arc and Serena going for showcases), so it is the least bad offender in this regard. But still, there are only so many times you can repeat an idea before it becomes stale, repetitive, tiresome, and frankly predictable.

Chloe’s development is “I can’t decide”
Why the hell did Serena return them if she didn’t benefit Chloe AT ALL

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Well, recycling the plots of past series isn't anything new. To give a few examples: There was a DP episode that recycled the "let's pit Pikachu against a Raichu and cement his refusal to evolve" storyline almost beat by beat; most of the Pokemon that James captures take after his Victribel's gag of showing affection in a painful manner, and similarly, Jessie's Seviper was basically Arbok 2.0; Dawn had the goal of competing in Contests like May and even chose the bird as her starter; Max and Croagunk took over Misty's role of pulling Brock away from a girl he was trying to flirt with; and so on.

Yes, there's always at least some minor differences in how these play out, but my point is that the anime recycling past plotlines is far from anything new.

 

[flowerfun]

Well, recycling the plots of past series isn't anything new. To give a few examples: There was a DP episode that recycled the "let's pit Pikachu against a Raichu and cement his refusal to evolve" storyline almost beat by beat; most of the Pokemon that James captures take after his Victribel's gag of showing affection in a painful manner, and similarly, Jessie's Seviper was basically Arbok 2.0; Dawn had the goal of competing in Contests like May and even chose the bird as her starter; Max and Croagunk took over Misty's role of pulling Brock away from a girl he was trying to flirt with; and so on.

Yes, there's always at least some minor differences in how these play out, but my point is that the anime recycling past plotlines is far from anything new.

Eh, ya fair. Though still, you can only really reuse ideas so many times before they get stale. I'm fine with using the same idea when the anime adds something new to it. I still think the "X pokemon was abandoned" trope really needs to get abandoned in it itself, again I'm fine with reusing an idea but when you have 4 pokemon with the same backstory it makes me think the writers are running out of ideas. Brock being horny was a running gag anyway so It doesen't really bother me that much.

 

[Hidden Mew]

To be fair, the writers aren't really expecting fans to keep watching through multiple series. They're aware that they generally get a new audience of kids every few years. They aren't going to think fans watching Journeys now would be familiar enough with Infernape's storyline to realize that both it and Gengar were abandoned by their original trainers.

 

[FluffleFi]

Maybe one of these days they'll do something different with the abandonment plot; Like instead of the trainer being an arrogant jackass, they're well-meaning but very wrongly assumed the Pokemon would be better without them. Or they could take reuse Snivy's backstory and actually do something with it, with the Pokemon abandoning its trainer for one reason or another.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

The season 1 episode Ghost of Maiden's Peak is a fan favorite of many, but personally, my favorite bit of it is the part where Jessie deconstructs the whole "I Will Wait for You" trope:

Girls like her disgust me. Always waiting around for her man as if she were his faithful pet. She can't stand the thought of losing him. She cries. But I'd say, "See ya later! There are plenty more fish in the sea!"

She's a strong and independent woman, and I appreciate a character like that. Plus, it's important to know when to move on and be able to let go of your past if necessary. It's just a shame that the ghost she said this to turned out to not be the actual ghost of the maiden.

 

[Harryghost]

Eh, ya fair. Though still, you can only really reuse ideas so many times before they get stale. I'm fine with using the same idea when the anime adds something new to it. I still think the "X pokemon was abandoned" trope really needs to get abandoned in it itself, again I'm fine with reusing an idea but when you have 4 pokemon with the same backstory it makes me think the writers are running out of ideas. Brock being horny was a running gag anyway so It doesen't really bother me that much.

This. The way I was flustered when I learnt that Gengar has a similar backstory to breathes Charmander, Snivy and Tepig... This trope really needs to end now.

Also, I don't know if hot take, but what was with Ash catching more non-Generation 8 Pokémon than Generation 8 Pokémon this series. Not that I hate his Pokémon, but Dragonite, Gengar AND Lucario?? Talk about fanservice attempts lol

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

The season 1 episode Ghost of Maiden's Peak is a fan favorite of many, but personally, my favorite bit of it is the part where Jessie deconstructs the whole "I Will Wait for You" trope:



She's a strong and independent woman, and I appreciate a character like that. Plus, it's important to know when to move on and be able to let go of your past if necessary. It's just a shame that the ghost she said this to turned out to not be the actual ghost of the maiden.

Continuing on with this topic, there are a couple more episodes that involve this trope.

First off, I want to talk about Time Warp Heals All Wounds. I don't really like this episode as much as I may have used to. An old woman lives in denial of her husband's death, waiting for him to return even though he's been confirmed to be dead. And then, magical, unexplained time travel shenanigans ensue, and the couple is reunited. How magically convenient. And how exactly did this man's death cause the city to fall into ruin in the original timeline, or how did him staying alive make the city lively and colorful? So sugary that it's overly sweet for my taste, especially as not enough is explained. Too many unanswered questions and too many overly convenient solutions.

Another episode pulls off this trope much better than either of the two I've discussed: Just Waiting On a Friend. A Ninetales was left to wait for its master after he set out on a journey that he never came back from. Even as the master's servants left or died off, one by one, and it was eventually left by itself, Ninetales continued to loyally wait. Finally, though, it did something that neither of the two previous examples had done: it realized its master was not going to come back. Granted, Ninetales had the benefit of being able to wait for longer than any human could, but it's still a healthy example of how to move on. The reason Ninetales was still in the mansion by the time of the episode, two hundred years after its master had left, despite it having understood the waiting was futile by this point, was simply because the power within its Poké Ball kept it bound to this place. It was only when the Ball was accidentally broken that Ninetales was finally free, which was actually a really heartwarming moment. So, in short, in this case, the character had started out waiting out of loyalty, but had realized the futility of waiting and tried to move on, like it's healthy to do in a situation like that. It was because of a power beyond Ninetales's control why it was unable to leave. This is the best handling of the "I Will Wait for You" trope I've seen in the Pokémon anime.

 

[Weddingbells]

Maybe one of these days they'll do something different with the abandonment plot; Like instead of the trainer being an arrogant jackass, they're well-meaning but very wrongly assumed the Pokemon would be better without them. Or they could take reuse Snivy's backstory and actually do something with it, with the Pokemon abandoning its trainer for one reason or another.

I think that kind of nuance is something the anime tends to avoid at times. They always go straight to the trainer is Satan for plotlines like this

 

[BeautifulSylveon]

I hated (and maybe this word isn’t enough to describe this feeling) the shadows on characters’ faces during the climax. To me, you can make a climax scene look epic without doing that.

Also, like the Alola Victory, I’m supposed to be happy for the one who won. But I’m not, and will probably never be. Maybe I consider the PWC a mistake. Not only I hate the shadows on characters’ faces, but also, I consider the victory’s announcement as a flashback as something not to do at all.

I’m not praising the outcome and happy for the one who won also because of how the character has been characterized since Alola. How can you be happy for a character’s victory if you don’t like how they have been characterized since 6 years?

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

I don't hate Gengar's old trainer I actually interpret him as being the victim. If he was blaming something that wasn't Gengar's fault on Gengar it shouldn't have gone away after he released Gengar. People who blame others lives don't get better luck they just come up with more excuses. That was explicitly not what happened.

 

[Weddingbells]

I don't hate Gengar's old trainer I actually interpret him as being the victim. If he was blaming something that wasn't Gengar's fault on Gengar it shouldn't have gone away after he released Gengar. People who blame others lives don't get better luck they just come up with more excuses. That was explicitly not what happened.

Now he is still the asshole, but yeah kinda feel a wee bit bad for him

 

[Nicolas721]

So, during the past week I saw the argument that "Ash always wins against game characters" and I didn't really understood what people meant by that, as I don't think the distintion matters that much. Looking at the leagues:

Kanto: The only game character is Gary, who is beaten unceremoniously by someone else offscreen.
Johto: The only game character is Gary again, who Ash beats. However, in the respective games Gary is just a postgame gym leader.
Hoenn: No game characters.
Battle Frontier: Ash wins against all Frontier Brains which come from the games, though the arc is more of a modern version of the Orange Islands Arc to fill time rather than Ash completing all challenges of the games.
Sinnoh: The only game character is Barry, who is beaten unceremoniously by someone else.
Unova: The only game character is Bianca, who is beaten unceremoniously by someone else.
Kalos: The only game characters are Tierno and Trevor, who are beaten unceremoniously by someone else.
Alola: Faba, Hau, Gladion and Kukui are mandatory battles in the games.

So the only cases that could count would be Johto, Alola and the Battle Frontier, and 3/8 is hardly a pattern. There are also many game characters which Ash lost to and to this day still remain undefeated by him: Maylene, Cress, Agatha, Flint, Palmer, Cheren (!), Alder, Diantha, Bertha, Lucian and Drake. I'm not saying that those characters are stronger than Ash, but it is a fact that Ash didn't beat them directly despite being game characters.