DISCUSSION: Mary Sues.

[matt0044]

Overly Sarcastic Productions is a little known Youtube channel that discusses about writing and stories from way back when. However, I feel their Trope Talk series is a great resource for writers and a cool insight into storytelling tools. This video in particular was especially enlightening:

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2-GIY9RTqU


It raises some very valid points about how the term itself tends to be misused too often, forgetting its roots and how its often involves the narrative around character themselves rather than just the characterization.

I feel that it'd be worth discussing so long as we don't get too personal and keep it civil. Enjoy the video. It's a ten minute quickie that you'll enjoy.

 

[matt0044]

I realize this is a broad topic but I was hoping the video would help somewhat.

 

[diamondpearl876]

I don't actually see the term Mary Sue used that often anymore, but maybe I'm in all the wrong places? It's a term with such hostility and negativity around it now that just using it, even in otherwise constructive comments, can easily feel like an insult.

the narrative around character themselves rather than just the characterization.

This is likely because Mary Sues generally don't have characterization, and that's the problem. What characterization usually is there, is pretty contradictory and lacking depth.

 

[Flaze]

Well, writing wise Mary Sues aren't as blatantly obvious outside of YA novels and even then I think they've decreased. They're still around but you won't see them everywhere like you used to. Where I've seen Mary Sues the most is in anime though. Light Novels in Japan for some weird reason seem to be going through a boom of Mary Suish characters who are big nerdy losers that get surrounded by hot girls and kick ass for no reason. Of course they get a lot of ire but their fans defend them to hell and back because, heyl, self-insert god is like me so he can't be bad right?

I think at this point, like the video points out, Mary Sue gets thrown around willy nilly yet a lot of people probably wouldn't know what a Mary Sue really is even if it hit them in the face. The fact that it's been tied to female characters specifically hurt it most, where you can have a story where a female character does the same thing as a male one but gets called out for a Sue because she doesn't follow some kind of arbitrary rules that aren't that well defined.

 

[CrystaI]

Stereotypical sexist subconsciousness prejudice viewers to hold double standard against male and female characters doing the exact same role. This is really a tricky question.

And regarding on the Japanese light novel character trend of often falling into harem situation...... this I will really have millions word to say.

I often went to the Japanese light novel writing tips site for writing advice, because my fanfic is tends to be more of the Japanese light novel style than English fictional novel style (I even wrote my fic in Japanese). The very first thing I must mention regarding on the Japanese light novel genre, is its function. Please note, in Japan there also exist ordinary normal novels in both fictional and non-fictional stories. However light novel is separated from those normal novels. One specific feature of light novel is they will use anime-style illustration on the book cover and in-between pages, you will most likely find them put under the same shelf as the mangas if you go to a bookstore in Japan, they are deems as one branch of the pop culture of Japan.

Local Japanese consumers of its own pop culture were all having one specific trait that every single one will share: Escapism.
Yes, indeed in a sense, pop culture consumers are alternatively speaking a kind of escapist. To be fair escapism was the very starting point and also the reason and the drive of popularity of this pop culture. Consumers of this culture gains emotional refreshment through fictions that tells a story impossible in Real-Life sense, indulging in those fictional utopia will help consumers forget about sadness in Real-Life. Light novel, being a product of Japanese pop culture, hence its mission is not to tell a Real-Life-wise logical story that will stick the Real-Life bitterness right at the reader's face, but rather to tell a emotionally refreshing story different from Real-Life, mostly a story where protagonist achieve major success without experiencing too much failure, or story that will let the protagonist falling into dreamful situations that Real-Life people would had longed for. That's why, light novel story about a dimwit loser surrounded by several beautiful girls which is implausible in terms of Real-Life sense is welcomed in Japan's pop culture.

Because of such escapist nature of Japanese pop culture, this notion of "Mary Sue" often being discussed and unwelcomed in Western fiction community is unknown to the Japanese, very seldom if not at all will the Japanese fiction community even bother on having a Mary Sueish character in their story, as they don't think Real-Life-wise unrealistic characters and unrealistic interaction is anything detrimental.

 

[Gama]

Back when I was a mod in the WW (about four years ago now) the term "Mary Sue" used to be thrown around a lot, almost always in not-so-subtle attempts to flame without being explicitly rude. I was under the impression the term had somewhat gone out of fashion and with good reason. As has already been said, I think it's a wildly misused term, and grew to be something people said to criticise without justifying their criticism.

Tbh even when it was first in use and had a clearer definition it meant a collection of things that would apply to varying degrees to different characters. I don't think this is quite what was originally wanted from this thread, but I would always say that if you are thinking of saying someone has written a "Mary Sue", then you should make sure to actually explain what traits you think build into that.

In terms of using a "Mary Sue" character, the same rule applies as does with any commonly criticised tropes: if you develop the character in question to the point that it's no longer clear the original criticism applies but it technically does then it's probably fine. I'm not sure how helpful a comment that is though...

 

[matt0044]

Because of such escapist nature of Japanese pop culture, this notion of "Mary Sue" often being discussed and unwelcomed in Western fiction community is unknown to the Japanese, very seldom if not at all will the Japanese fiction community even bother on having a Mary Sueish character in their story, as they don't think Real-Life-wise unrealistic characters and unrealistic interaction is anything detrimental.

That's a bit presumptuous. Clearly, there have been dessenters given how some publishers have explicitly requested no stories about dudes getting trapped in another world again.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

The term used to be meaningful, but I think that its history of being misunderstood and misused, as well as the sexist connotation its accrued, makes it obsolete as a writing term. If you absolutely have to call a character, accurately, a Mary Sue, there's nothing stopping you from saying "I reckon your protagonist warps the narrative by bending the established rules of the setting around them, and by never having any reasonable differences of opinion with other characters besides antagonists. Your protagonist should be capable of failure and of being in the wrong, and subject to the same rules of reality as everyone else." It's a bit long winded, but it won't be misinterpreted and it's more helpful.