No, really. Why were aspects of Japan present in the anime deemed problematic?

[Antiyonder]

Sorry, but I'm not accepting that. If we're going to grill 4kids over alleged racism/xenophobia on their part just because they wanted to localize the show to make it more relevant to American kids, then we should also grill the Japanese producers for allowing hurtful stereotypes of African Americans in the show. I apologize for the whataboutism, but I just hate double standards.

1. Right, but let me put it this way. America is my house and thus I need to make sure it's as clean as possible before telling people in Japan how to keep their house.

2. I might have disagreed with Dogasu's assessment, but then there are holes in 4KIds logic that people seem to be unwilling to acknowledge like:

A. Why hide Japanese stuff while being eager to show other foreign cultures? Afterall, bigotry doesn't mean hating every single foreign culture.
B. I repeat the reason I felt the need to start this thread. How are obscure things like Riceballs or say the Hinamatsuri festival offputting compared to newly creative things in the Pokémon world (especially when the games/anime/manga first came to the US)?

Back in 98 (especially with the internet not being as common place) when Pokémon was new to the US shores, how would a Riceball be anymore alien compared to a Pokéball which didn't exist until Pokémon?

 

[WyndonCalling]

B. I repeat the reason I felt the need to start this thread. How are obscure things like Riceballs or say the Hinamatsuri festival offputting compared to newly creative things in the Pokémon world (especially when the games/anime/manga first came to the US)?

Back in 98 (especially with the internet not being as common place) when Pokémon was new to the US shores, how would a Riceball be anymore alien compared to a Pokéball which didn't exist until Pokémon?

I think the simple answer is that these novel elements are obviously fantastical and easily invite suspension of disbelief (they're also pretty simple, too - the OG opening credits clearly show a Pokéball in action).

Food, festivals and other forms of culture are very real and wrapped up in swathes of local and historical context; a young brain doesn't need any time to figure out what a Pokéball is and what it does, but may be distracted by something familiar (like rice) presented in a new form. To the mind of a cynical, fearful executive, that could well be distracting an impressionable young audience member from following the events on screen or create an impression of something 'alien' in an otherwise quite simple show.

 

[DynamicFusion]

I think they want to localize and appropriate Pokemon as a Western Cartoon rather than treating it as an Anime so they make such changes which I deem completely unnecessary. I personally do not think it has to do with anything to do with Racism & Xenophobia. You also do have to remember the way things are looked at in Japan is not the way things are exactly looked at the west (like the Aloe/Leonara Incident or the Passiman). In Japan, the former would just have been looked at as a Normal Black Lady with an Apron while in the West we'd see clear racist undertones, same thing with the Passiman Incident.

You also have to remember that the majority of kids that are watching this are 8 & 10 Years Old, we are just a small minority. Some of them might not even know Pokemon is a foreign cartoon. And as someone who got out of School just recently, the history that is taught in school is very America-Centered and mostly oblivious to other Countries (they don't even cover the UK/USSR accomplishments in WW2) so many people regardless of their politics are blatantly ignorant about other countries (Good Example being Super Bowl Champions regularly calling themselves "World Champions" in a Sport that is only played in America).

 

[Phosphene]

You also have to remember that the majority of kids that are watching this are 8 & 10 Years Old, we are just a small minority. Some of them might not even know Pokemon is a foreign cartoon.

I don't think children would be confused or upset by references to another culture even though they are foreign to them. Honestly, they'd probably just see it as part of the fantasy world. I know that when I was little playing SoulSilver, for example, I wasn't aware that the games were from a Japanese company. However, I wasn't confused or upset by, say, the Kimono girls. They honestly didn't even register as foreign or different to me--they were just part of the game.

That being said, I don't know if the people who made decision to remove elements of Japanese culture were thinking that way. Perhaps it was done because they feared that the show may not be relatable/palatable to Western audiences if it included references to Japanese culture. Racism and/or xenophobia may have also played a hand it in as well.

And as someone who got out of School just recently, the history that is taught in school is very America-Centered and mostly oblivious to other Countries (they don't even cover the UK/USSR accomplishments in WW2)

Er, the US school system varies across state and county/parish/borough lines so I don't think you can extrapolate your personal experience to an entire country. Especially when there's various levels of courses, from college level to special-needs, as well that may differ in depth.

 

[RustyTrubbish]

Because collectively speaking a lot of kids back in the 1990s probably didn't care about other cultures that much and I do think that 4kids was right to assume that.

I think that from 4Kids' standpoint, the idea of kids being bombarded with foreign references in every other episode back in Kanto probably sounded like too much of a risk if there was even a slim chance that some kids would be turned off by that. And kids switching the channel would've meant lower ratings.

What about Asian American kids? They would recognise the food.

You mean the onigiri? Isn't that a Japanese dish? Why would you assume that Asian Americans collectively would have knowledge of a very specific Japanese food?

 

[Antiyonder]

Still, I was actually a kid when the original TMNT cartoon (started in 1987) and that show was less shy about acknowledging Japan or things from it (Sushi and even Kimonos). Didn't end until the mid 90s.

So yeah still a marketing hit with the kids despite not being shy about Splinter's home country.

And the presence of Chinese symbols don't seemed to have hurt ATLA either.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Because collectively speaking a lot of kids back in the 1990s probably didn't care about other cultures that much and I do think that 4kids was right to assume that.

I think that from 4Kids' standpoint, the idea of kids being bombarded with foreign references in every other episode back in Kanto probably sounded like too much of a risk if there was even a slim chance that some kids would be turned off by that. And kids switching the channel would've meant lower ratings.

I think that is assuming too much about kids, especially when there would be a lot of kids from different cultures watching Pokemon in the 90's too. I don't think kids were that turned off by other cultures back then or would be annoyed at seeing nods to Japanese culture in Pokemon. The main selling point was seeing Pokemon animated and battling each other, so I can't really imagine that seeing references to a different culture would have really bothered kids to the point where they'd change the channel. I just don't like how this really assumes the worst about kids when I don't think it would have been that big of an issue in the first place.

 

[ii kanji]

The Japanese cultural references that were meticulously removed from the early English dub are so innocuous that the average child wouldn't have even paid heed, or certainly not been bothered by them. This systematic cultural erasure was by adults, for adults IMO. And yes, underlying that is a deep-rooted vein of xenophobia which exists in Western cultures towards Eastern ones. People are better at pretending it doesn't exist in 2021 than 1998 but it hasn't gone away.

This of course doesn't negate the badness of Rougela/Jynx, the mammy stereotype, blackface and so on. Why can't we accept that both sides of the pond have pulled a ton of racist shit over the years? It's not even about blame. It's about accepting that the issue is real and being able to talk about it.

 

[Adelon]

What about Asian American kids? They would recognise the food.

Not necessarily. If the kid's family immigrated recently and they've been keeping in contact with their ancestral heritage or interacting with recent immigrants, sure, but an Asian American kid whose family has been in the USA since the early 20th century and doesn't live near an Asian grocery store/restaurant or interact much with recent immigrants and their children might be unfamiliar with stuff like onigiri (especially if they weren't even Japanese American in the first place).

It's more likely they'd recognize some mochi or dorayaki as there are similar dishes in other Asian cultures. Even white kids in America may know about mochi in 2021 because they saw it on some other television show or read about it on the internet.

 

[Johtoo]

4Kids thinks kids are ignorant to other cultures.

Terrible take. Kids are not going to understand Japanese cultural references or puns. Have you seen how awkward Professor Oak's Alolan counterpart was portrayed in the English Dub?

 

[Johtoo]

Pokémon fans generally do not like to talk about this, and I always get pushback whenever I bring this up, but the answer is quite simple: racism / xenophobia.

Now why these racist / xenophobic practices originated from -- the group of mostly middle aged white men who run the dub, or the network executives who put it on TV, or the fear of upsetting the ignorant soccer moms who will write in and complain about these "Chinese cartoons," or some combination of all of them-- is up for debate. But whoever you point the finger at, it's very obvious to me that the practice of removing Japanese language / culture from the show is rooted in some very ugly ways of thinking.

Westernizing the show isn't considered xenophobic, neither is blaming middle aged white men for translating a Japanese show into something more westernized. 4 kids didn't remove any Japanese clothings, they didn't digitally edit any food (in the original series). Consequently, the only thing they did change was the japanese writings which is neither problematic or an issue. You cannot expect English speaking children to read japanese, so, again, this was not an issue what so ever. By the way, Pokemon became popular in the west because of the anime, so what you considered was ugly, was also successful and allowed millions of children to follow the anime.

 

[swiftgallade46]

Terrible take. Kids are not going to understand Japanese cultural references or puns. Have you seen how awkward Professor Oak's Alolan counterpart was portrayed in the English Dub?

So? What’s wrong with kids learning that Pokémon originated in Japan? Worse comes to worse they learn about a new culture. With Oak, the language he uses has to be dubbed, so the awkward translation of his puns are kind of unavoidable.

Westernizing the show isn't considered xenophobic, neither is blaming middle aged white men for translating a Japanese show into something more westernized. 4 kids didn't remove any Japanese clothings, they didn't digitally edit any food (in the original series). Consequently, the only thing they did change was the japanese writings which is neither problematic or an issue. You cannot expect English speaking children to read japanese, so, again, this was not an issue what so ever. By the way, Pokemon became popular in the west because of the anime, so what you considered was ugly, was also successful and allowed millions of children to follow the anime.

It can be considered xenophobic, sure. That’s a valid interpretation in my eyes.

Also where are you getting that Pokémon only became popular in the west because of the anime? I don’t recall ever seeing such a statistic. Most of the friends I had growing up learned about it via the games or TCG. I also doubt that it wouldn’t have been at all popular if the Japanese elements had been left in the anime. Plenty of anime were popular in the west back in the late 90s that had little to no westernization.

 

[Johtoo]

So? What’s wrong with kids learning that Pokémon originated in Japan? Worse comes to worse they learn about a new culture. With Oak, the language he has to be dubbed, so the awkward translation of his puns are kind of unavoidable.

I'm pretty sure a lot of children back then knew pokemon was a japanese product. There were numerous references in the anime that alluded to that without needing japanese text. Team rocket dressed up in traditional outfits during their motto's, there was a japanese festival in haunted ghastly episode, numerous Japanese customs were shown that obviously were left in the dub. 4kids only fault was removing Japanese texts and westernizing puns.

It can be considered xenophobic, sure. That’s a valid interpretation in my eyes.

Also where are you getting that Pokémon only became popular in the west because of the anime? I don’t recall ever seeing such a statistic. Most of the friends I had growing up learned about it via the games or TCG. I also doubt that it wouldn’t have been at all popular if the Japanese elements had been left in the anime. Plenty of anime were popular in the west back in the late 90s that had little to no westernization.

Pokemon exploded in the west because of the anime, not the games. This is considered absolute, and you needed to live through it to know that. What Dogasu defined as Xenophobic doesn't fit into what he said. His reasons didn't highlight any xenophobia, because 4kids did not once demean Japanese culture in favour of their own. They simply westernized the show without removing it's original element. Calling the dub xenophobic is completely laughable, tbh. Ethnocentric, maybe? But not xenophobic.

 

[swiftgallade46]

I'm pretty sure a lot of children back then knew pokemon was a japanese product. There were numerous references in the anime that alluded to that without needing japanese text. Team rocket dressed up in traditional outfits during their motto's, there was a japanese festival in haunted ghastly episode, numerous Japanese customs were shown that obviously were left in the dub. 4kids only fault was removing Japanese texts and westernizing puns.

Then what’s wrong with leaving the references in? I’m pretty certain it was more than just the language. There’s the whole jelly donuts thing, the sandwich rolling down the hill, and several other examples. People aren’t collectively making up this censorship out of nowhere.

Pokemon exploded in the west because of the anime, not the games. This is considered absolute, and you needed to live through it to know that. What Dogasu defined as Xenophobic doesn't fit into what he said. His reasons didn't highlight any xenophobia, because 4kids did not once demean Japanese culture in favour of their own. They simply westernized the show without removing it's original element. Calling the dub xenophobic is completely laughable, tbh. Ethnocentric, maybe? But not xenophobic.

Well if you’re going to make the claim that it is absolute, then I’d definitely like to see some sources, as this is the first I’m hearing of it.

There are levels to xenophobia. It doesn’t always have to mean the explicit demeaning of foreign cultures. Censoring references to them isn’t aggressive, but it’s still a kind of xenophobia because it suggests that foreign cultures must comply with our own in order to be suitable for exposure to our audiences.

 

[Johtoo]

Then what’s wrong with leaving the references in? I’m pretty certain it was more than just the language. There’s the whole jelly donuts thing, the sandwich rolling down the hill, and several other examples. People aren’t collectively making up this censorship out of nowhere.

The sandwich down the hill didn't start until Advanced Challenge. That was an odd choice, but that was long after Pokemania. Also, by virtue, 4kids removed a lot of the violent aspects of the show (that are seen more positively in Japanese culture, but not the west). Should they have kept that as well? I'm talking about pointing a gun at a literal child, children being hit or slapped or even keeping Jynx (which stirs blackface/racist connotations). I would consider keeping that in the show worse than removing some Japanese texts.

Well if you’re going to make the claim that it is absolute, then I’d definitely like to see some sources, as this is the first I’m hearing of it.

There are levels to xenophobia. It doesn’t always have to mean the explicit demeaning of foreign cultures. Censoring references to them isn’t aggressive, but it’s still a kind of xenophobia because it suggests that foreign cultures must comply with our own in order to be suitable for exposure to our audiences.

You can't source 1998, and if you genially don't believe the anime didn't cause Pokemania, then maybe you should go out of your own way to ask people from that time. And Xenophobia is a serious notion - such as racism. You shouldn't use it lightly. Even so, the notion that removing japanese texts so English speakers can read it or cencoring rice balls 9 years later can be considered even in the same ballpark as that is a huge huge stretch. Also, like i said above, if they kept jynx in, would that not make 4 kids racist as well? Does that not make Japan racist? It's a two way street here and you can't blame one side and ignore the other. If you're going to criticize 4kids, do it because of their tasteless americanized jokes (which are corny), but they clearly did nothing wrong and to suggest otherwise is and will always be silly.

 

[swiftgallade46]

The sandwich down the hill didn't start until Advanced Challenge. That was an odd choice, but that was long after Pokemania. Also, by virtue, 4kids removed a lot of the violent aspects of the show (that are seen more positively in Japanese culture, but not the west). Should they have kept that as well? I'm talking about pointing a gun at a literal child, children being hit or slapped or even keeping Jynx (which stirs blackface/racist connotations). I would consider keeping that in the show worse than removing some Japanese texts.


You can't source 1998, and if you genially don't believe the anime didn't cause Pokemania, then maybe you should go out of your own way to ask people from that time. And Xenophobia is a serious notion - such as racism. You shouldn't use it lightly. Even so, the notion that removing japanese texts so English speakers can read it or cencoring rice balls 9 years later can be considered even in the same ballpark as that is a huge huge stretch. Also, like i said above, if they kept jynx in, would that not make 4 kids racist as well? Does that not make Japan racist? It's a two way street here and you can't blame one side and ignore the other. If you're going to criticize 4kids, do it because of their tasteless americanized jokes (which are corny), but they clearly did nothing wrong and to suggest otherwise is and will always be silly.

Leaving in racism and violence is completely different to leaving in references to food and culture lol. Also you are coming off very presumptuous; I indeed lived through the time when Pokemon began getting popular. You still haven’t given me a source that the anime is exclusively what caused it to become sensationalized in the west.

There are levels to racism as well. Not all instances of it are people using slurs or barring them from establishments. Many of them are systemic. The same applies to xenophobia.

 

[Dogasu]

I'm pretty sure a lot of children back then knew pokemon was a japanese product.

You would actually be surprised at just how many people have come up to me over the years and said "You know, I had no idea Pokémon was Japanese until I started visiting your site." The company's whitewashing of the show fooled a lot of people.

Even so, the notion that removing japanese texts so English speakers can read it

That's not what they did though. The overwhelming majority of the time 4Kids didn't even bother to translate the text; they mostly just removed it without putting anything in its place.

The few times they actually translated the text on-screen -- the Kanto Pokémon League poster, A.J.'s billboard, etc. -- are all fine. That actually does fulfill the "make things easier for English speakers" requirement that all localizations strive to live up to. It's the erasing of text, and then not bothering to put anything in its place, that's the problem.

Because what that's doing is basically sending out this message that the mere presence of Japanese writing somehow makes a show unsuitable to air in the U.S. It's saying that Japanese writing is dirty and obscene, and that 4Kids has to come in and scrub it clean before they'll allow the show to air. When the seasons set in the show's version of Japan aren't allowed to have Japanese writing in them but the seasons set in its version of the U.S. are allowed to have English writing in them then yes, that sends a very clear message.

I think it's hard for native English speakers to understand just how fucked up the whole thing is because the same thing doesn't happen to us. The producers of The Simpsons, for example, aren't being asked to cut down on the American cultural references in their show to make it easier to export. They just make the show the way they want and let the foreign localizers sweat it out. We don't ever get told, implicitly or otherwise, that the mere presence of our language in our entertainment is a "problem."

Also, like i said above, if they kept jynx in, would that not make 4 kids racist as well? Does that not make Japan racist? It's a two way street here and you can't blame one side and ignore the other.

Japan gets called out for its racist bullshit all the time. I don't know why you (and Venomaid) are trying to imply otherwise.

 

[WyndonCalling]

You would actually be surprised at just how many people have come up to me over the years and said "You know, I had no idea Pokémon was Japanese until I started visiting your site." The company's whitewashing of the show fooled a lot of people.

I suspect this owes just as much to the unprecedented success of the anime in the twilight of the pre-internet era. In the highly-likely circumstance that this is the first time time your young self has consumed any anime at all (our own poll suggests a plurality of users would have been five or six) and you're presented with an American-accented cast and a protagonist who wears a baseball cap, it's not an unreasonable assumption that this is also the output of the nation which dominated cartoon media for swathes of the 20th C.

Because what that's doing is basically sending out this message that the mere presence of Japanese writing somehow makes a show unsuitable to air in the U.S. It's saying that Japanese writing is dirty and obscene, and that 4Kids has to come in and scrub it clean before they'll allow the show to air. When the seasons set in the show's version of Japan aren't allowed to have Japanese writing in them but the seasons set in its version of the U.S. are allowed to have English writing in them then yes, that sends a very clear message.

I must confess I'm struggling with the notion that a team using their Japanese translation skills to market a Japanese cultural output also loathes Japanese culture with a fury typically reserved for religious iconoclasm circa 1550. There's something to be said for having higher expectations of the target audience and their willingness to both understand and internalise other cultures, but no, I think it's a stretch that this team equates the Japanese language with pornographic material and the likes.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Kids are not going to understand Japanese cultural references or puns. Have you seen how awkward Professor Oak's Alolan counterpart was portrayed in the English Dub?

What does it have to do with anything? His main stick in both versions is making terrible puns based on pokémon names.

or even keeping Jynx (which stirs blackface/racist connotations).

Weird thing to brought up considering 4Kids had no problem with it during the time of "pokémania."

 

[Fan of Jarrus]

How do you know kids don't understand stuff?