Original Kanto/Johto Champion?

[Karpi]

Red then stepped down, to go and catch em all, including Mew, and even travel to Johto, and the league were like, ffs we still not got a champion, lance do you want to take the job permanently?

This is the only awkward part. Something happened to make them hire a 5th person at some point. Probably occurred during the league reshuffling.

So: Agatha probably died, meaning they had to look for a replacement. Lorelei decided that was the perfect time to leave since they were already looking for new members. Perhaps Lance also wanted to leave, but felt obligated to help the Elite Four restructure itself since he had more or less been in charge.

So they recruit Karen, Koga, and Will. Lance stays on as the Champion but not an actual member so he can sort of supervise at first, but then when he's defeated by the player he can leave like he wanted.

Just me making things up, really. But it makes sense in some ways.

 

[Lysson]

Judging by the Pokemon Adventure manga I just presumed that at first the elite 4 were just the strongest trainers, there wasn't really a champion but they somewhat had a leader (who was Lance) so I'd just guess Lance is what you would have called the champion of that game. And since Blue defeated their leader he became the elite 4 leader but instead of kicking someone out (to keep the number at four) he gained the title champion and the 5th member .

Then future games just followed this of 'the elite 4' with the added champion because technically it's the elite 4 with the ultimate trainer. That's what my impression was.

 

[Solayoh]

I doubt that Professor Oak was the Champion in recent years. Some of you don't seem to remember what Agatha had to say about him: "That old duff was once tough and handsome. But that was decades ago. He's a shadow of his former self. Now he just wants to fiddle with his Pokédex. He's wrong. Pokémon are for battling!"

Note the bolded part. Clearly, if Oak was the Champion at any point (which is quite possible), it was decades ago. I highly doubt that there was no Champion for all that time.

I think it would be neat if a new character were linked to Kanto and Johto by giving him a backstory explaining how he used to be the Indigo Champion until he moved to another region, leaving his spot empty until Blue came along. It would be similar to Steven's story in Emerald and HGSS, although in that case Steven apparently asked Wallace to replace him.

He could have still been champion despite not being at his prime. Remember to get to Oak, any trainer would have to get past any of the E4 first, so his position was probably never really threatened because of Lance's sheer power.

Eventually Oak wanted to retire, his heart just wasn't into battling anymore, he knew he wasn't as good as Lance, and he wanted to focus on his research more.
Agatha had teased him a bit saying how his battling just weren't up to it anymore, but she didn't seriously think he would step down, and she was a bit disappointed/sad to see her friend take this path.

 

[The Outrage]

Lance's dialogue seems to imply that the spot was currently vacant, so I'd suggest that while the Indigo Plateau had Champions in the past, there was currently no active Champion who wanted to defend the title.

I don't think its that strange to have a vacant seat. After all, in Unova, Alder abandoned his post after his first Volcarona died. It was only with the prompting of the Elite 4, and the threat Team Plasma and N posed that he returned, otherwise the Unova League was in the exact same condition as Kanto--a league without an acting Champion.

Spoiler

Marshall (General afterward, BW)
"Representing the Pokémon League in the absence of the Champion has been my duty as Alder's student. However, there is nothing as empty as words not backed up by strength. A word in your ear, strong challenger... The other members of the Elite Four are far more powerful than I am. Do not underestimate them!"

Perhaps it was Oak, but what I find strange about that assertion was that an email was sent to Oak and if he was really going to defend the title, they wouldn't have given Blue the post since he was on his way. And I doubt Agatha would have called him a shadow of his former self if he was still stronger than she was.

Though, given that Agatha is the oldest Elite 4 member, I'd think that Oak had given up his position in his youth to pursue a career in science, and they just simply couldn't find a new Champion ever since. I don't know why that would be any more strange than an unknown trainer just leaving the title. So I don't think Oak was the current Champion--there was simply no one else after him due to the strength of the Elite 4.

Or maybe the last Champion was Lance's grandfather, the Dragon Clan elder, who also gave up his position to run the clan. Maybe that's why Lance never bothered to try to take the position of Champion until someone else claimed it, out of respect for his grandfather.

 

[Silktree]

Lance's dialogue in the Generation II Hall of Fame implies something interesting: "It's been a long time since I last came here. This is where we honor the League Champions for all eternity."

Why is this interesting? Because three years shouldn't be considered a long time, especially considering that no Generation I event was said to have happened a long time ago. If Lance didn't exaggerate how long it had been since he entered the Hall of Fame, then he must have become the Champion even before Generation I. Why, then, wasn't he actually the Champion all along? The simplest explanation that I can think of is that one of the Elite Four members left and no one was found to replace them, so Lance had no choice but to regress so that there wouldn't be a hole in the league system. Once Will, Koga and Karen joined (and despite Lorelei and Agatha leaving), Lance could retain his original title (assuming that Red and even Blue weren't interested in sticking around).

If this is really the case, then the real question is which Elite Four member left to begin with. It's possible that either Will or Karen took a temporary leave of absence and came back by Generation II. Lorelei did just that between the two Elite Four rounds in FRLG, but in that case the entire league was shut down for the duration of her absence. Perhaps they realized after the first time that the league couldn't function properly without five active members.

Eventually Oak wanted to retire, his heart just wasn't into battling anymore, he knew he wasn't as good as Lance, and he wanted to focus on his research more.
Agatha had teased him a bit saying how his battling just weren't up to it anymore, but she didn't seriously think he would step down, and she was a bit disappointed/sad to see her friend take this path.

You're free to think this way, but the scenario doesn't make sense to me. It's clear from Agatha's dialogue that she stopped seeing Oak as a strong trainer decades ago, so it's very hard to believe that he continued being the Champion after that (if he ever was). And why on earth wouldn't Agatha, Oak or anyone allude to this being the case if he only recently retired?

So I don't think Oak was the current Champion--there was simply no one else after him due to the strength of the Elite 4.

With respect to the Elite Four, they shouldn't be undefeated for decades. Not to mention that aside from Agatha, the other members aren't that old, so clearly they replaced other people during that period. Perhaps Agatha was strong enough not to let anyone replace her (the Elite Four probably have a longer tenure than the Champions do), but I doubt that she had been undefeated before Blue and Red came along.

I don't know why that would be any more strange than an unknown trainer just leaving the title

Except that there is nothing really odd about that depending on the circumstances. An untold story (of an unseen character) isn't an unfeasible one.

Or maybe the last Champion was Lance's grandfather, the Dragon Clan elder, who also gave up his position to run the clan. Maybe that's why Lance never bothered to try to take the position of Champion until someone else claimed it, out of respect for his grandfather.

I have a problem with this theory since we met Lance and Clair's grandfather long ago. I don't see why something like this would be kept a secret.

 

[ReturnofMCH]

remember that FR and LG were remakes of the original games. they didn't know if pocket monsters red and green would sell well, they didn't even want to bring it overseas!
so considering the fact that gold and silver weren't hinted at until the first episode of the anime, there might not have originally been a champion in kanto/johto.
there was NO champion in the original league until blue took the title. according to lance saying he was the LAST OF THE ELITE FOUR, and that blue became a champion before you.
also, we don't know what "a long time" means to lance, as we can't ask him, so 3 years might have been "a long time" to him, but not to normal people today.

 

[Silktree]

remember that FR and LG were remakes of the original games. they didn't know if pocket monsters red and green would sell well, they didn't even want to bring it overseas!
so considering the fact that gold and silver weren't hinted at until the first episode of the anime, there might not have originally been a champion in kanto/johto.

What do Gold and Silver had to do with this? They're sequels rather than prequels.

The Champion room in which Red and Blue battled obviously wasn't built right after Blue defeated Lance, so someone should have occupied it previously even if they were gone by the time Blue defeated Lance. More importantly, the existence of the Hall of Fame and Oak's description of it ("This floor is the Pokémon Hall of Fame. Pokémon League champions are honored for their exploits here!") makes it obvious that Blue wasn't the first Champion.

It doesn't matter if Game Freak knew who the previous Champion was when they created Red and Green. The Pokémon world isn't limited to Game Freak's conception of it at a given time. They can add information about the past retrospectively, and if they don't, we're free to theorize about it.

 

[henrymidfields]

Hmm, I've always assumed that Lance was at the top - both before Blue became champion and again after Red became champion and left. I've always assumed that Lance had to step down from Champion to E4-1st Rank simply because of Blue. As for Red, because Red declined to take up the post, and Blue also stepped down as well (to become Viridian City Gym Leader), Lance returned to his old post.

 

[elveonora]

Now you mention it... wasn't Marshal of Unova's Elite Four some sort of makeshift Champion in Alder's absence? Perhaps the same happened in Kanto... the Champion left, so Lance represented both roles. And between events of Gens I. and II. a new Elite Four member was recruited, which made Lance become the Champion officially after Red turned it down.

 

[Silktree]

I've always assumed that Lance had to step down from Champion to E4-1st Rank simply because of Blue.

That still begs the question of which Elite Four roster Blue had to face. Considering the theme of Lance's room, I doubt that there was enough time for a renovation between Blue and Red's challenges; remember that Professor Oak didn't even have time to congratulate Blue before Red usurped him. So I doubt that Blue faced Lance as the Champion.

Lance's Generation II quote does imply that he had been to the Hall of Fame before the events of Generation I. With that in mind, the simplest explanation is that Lance was the previous Champion and that he had to replace one of the Elite Four members. Blue probably just faced the Elite Four.

 

[Muur]

Vacant/Lance was the champion regent.

Or maybe there was a guy in the 4th elite 4 spot Blue beat that we don't know about after they got kicked off ;o

 

[BlackButterfree]

I agree with most comments here. There was no Champion before Blue and the closest thing to it was Lance. Which is why Lance is Champion 3 years later.

 

[Tyrfing]

There was no Champion before Blue, just as everyone said here. Lance was the closest to one, explaining his reign when Red became a loner for no explicit reason. I'm assuming the Pokemon League system itself, at least in Kanto, was fairly new itself, but that's for another topic another day.

 

[BlackButterfree]

Agatha dies

That's sad, considering she's probably 50 like Oak. Here's my head canon:

She quit the E4, moved to Sinnoh and started going by her middle name: Bertha. She settled into Veilstone and went for a walk one day in Route 214 when she came across an injured Hippopotas. She takes care of it, and gradually her personality begins to soften because of this Hippopotas. By the time it evolves, she's realized she has a passion for Ground types and while still loving her former Pokémon, decides to prove herself with a Ground team and eventually makes it into the Sinnoh Elite 4.

But back to the original topic. I think the theory I most like is that an E4 member quit, or took a leave of absence (most likely Will instead of Karen, since Dark types don't live in Kanto. Except maybe Umbreon?) and Lance, being the current Champion, decided to step down and fill the vacant position himself.

Then when Lorelei left for the Sevii Islands and Agatha (in my mind) left for Sinnoh, Koga was promoted and eventually Will returned from traveling a nearby region (Johto). Then when scientists classified Dark types, Lance decided to hire a specialist of the type from this Johto region: Karen. That way, he could resume his position as Champion and unite both Johto and Kanto under a single league. ^_^

 

[Cute Charm]

Maybe Kanto/Johto just has an open champion clause in their rules or something. Like "In the event of no reigning Champion, the Champion title goes to the forth member of the elite four." Maybe there was a champion prior to Blue, but that champion was another random no-name trainer who left to explore other regions and the title defaulted to Lance until Blue beat him.

G/S/C/HGSS Kanto/Johto league is no different:

• Lorelei takes a leave of absence recommending her cousin Will for a replacement.
• Agatha abdicates to her granddaughter Karen. (reason why she is where Agatha would be in the rankings.)
• Koga was promoted after Lance leaves to walk the earth because he's the oldest Kanto Gym leader that had a replacement lined up (Blane's granddaughter is to busy manning her own gym in Hoenn).
• Red acted as Champion until mysteriously leaving one day to go live in a mountain forever. Before he did he left a note saying that Lance should be Champion again. If this note didn't exist it would defaulted to Karen. But since the ex-champ recommended him they decided to call Lance Back. Unfortunately the Team Rocket stuff happened before he could take the seat. The league was probably closed until further notice to new challengers just in case the New Team Rocket came looking for Red considering that the League was his last known location.

 

[Fairy Type Arceus]

I doubt that Professor Oak was the Champion in recent years. Some of you don't seem to remember what Agatha had to say about him: "That old duff was once tough and handsome. But that was decades ago. He's a shadow of his former self. Now he just wants to fiddle with his Pokédex. He's wrong. Pokémon are for battling!"

Note the bolded part. Clearly, if Oak was the Champion at any point (which is quite possible), it was decades ago. I highly doubt that there was no Champion for all that time.

I think it would be neat if a new character were linked to Kanto and Johto by giving them a backstory explaining how they used to be the Indigo Champion until they moved to another region, leaving the spot vacant until Blue came along. It would be similar to Steven's story in Emerald and HGSS, although in that case Steven apparently asked Wallace to replace him.

I like the idea of oak being the champion years ago, then he stepped down and no one was able to replace him...I might work this into my fanfiction about before red/blue