Russia and Georgia (the country) at war

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A sad thing to happen as the Olympic Games get underway. It's also surprising in that the Georgian and Russian athletes were standing next to each other after the march into the Stadium. I wonder if any of them were aware of what has happened...

Hundreds of civilians dead, Russia has sent tanks across the border, four planes purported to have been shot down, and at least one incident of bombing...

This looks like it is going to be ugly for a while to come.
 
Matkin22 said:
A sad thing to happen as the Olympic Games get underway.
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So true, it really sucks that a conflict in the Caucuses is stealing some of the limelight from that athletic festival that is being politicized and abused by the Chinese authorities to white wash their human rights abuses. I mean how dare those dastardly Georgians react to separatist and Russian aggression like that, when the only thing everyone wants right now is some corporate sponsored entertainment. I mean the gall of those guys down there, seriously Mikheil Saakashvili what seems to be the problem? Couldn't they have waited till after the games? I mean let the Chinese pull of their propaganda stunt in peace with full media coverage, instead of having some news agencies divert attention from the parade! Way to piss in their cheerios guys!
 
There is no need for you to be so sarcastic. Typically in the past, peace treaties were signed at the Olympic Games between warring nations. What both Georgia and Russia have done goes against the Olympic spirit. That is the point I was making.
 
I think the sarcasm was necessary, justified and relevant.

On the point you made about the wars, that was actually the Ancient Olympics in Greece a few thousand years ago believe it or not. So it totally doesn't apply anymore but yeah. The amount of conflicts that have raged during Olympics makes it even less applicable today, well that and giving it to the dictators in China. I have my fingers crossed that the the 2016 Olympics are going either to Sudan, Zimbabwe or possibly Iran.

Oh and giving it to China is absolutely part of the Olympic spirit, so it was dumb of those two to ruin it for everyone by going against the Olympic spirit. Why can't we have more brain dead corporate fed entertainment and make it a twenty four hour coverage, who cares about the Georgians? That ideal about the Olympic spirit is antique and severely outdated...
 
Probably not neccessary to put the fact that the country Georgia is at war in brackets, but anyway...

It seems that Russia has decided to move backwards, like the Russia of old...

Also, sarcasm is so useful on the internet.
 
Yes it is actually especially when I make it that obvious even the 12 year olds will catch it. So yes it is useful, I don't see why you stated otherwise.

Back on topic:
Russia hasn't actually moved forward since the Cold War so this isn't really a move backward. The line of tsars never ended with the rise of the communists, all it meant is that the tsars weren't all related by blood. Stalin was the red tsar and so were his successory and now Putin is simply a modern day tsar without the communist bit and the same applies to Medvedev is too.
 
I thought it was odd that since Georgia is pulling back there troops from Irag(They have the third biggest amount of soldiers there) to help with the conflict with Russia that the U.S. is helping them pull back when we cant seem to manage to pull our own troops back and while I know that the goverment does not want to pull our troops back(At least for the time being.)but it still seems to contradictory to me. Also about the Olympic argument you two where talking about I agree with Matkin that it is sad the fighting is breaking out now during the Olympics and while I also agree with Ling Ling I think it was a bit childish of him to twist his words when he knew that Matkin did not mean it the way he made it seem and as far as the Chinese media stunt Ling Ling commented on. I do not like the fact that games are in China either but I also do not think it is as big of a deal as many people think is. Sure China currently is Communist with a good deal of unfair laws but moving the Olympics would not have changed that and if anything would have angered China in some way making things worse then they are at the moment.
 
Just noticed something...

Looking at the forum, it seems that this war is less important thatn YouTube, Facebook, MySpace, Quebec and John Edwards!

I am still wondering why Georgia bothered in the first place. FIghting against Russia? How do you expect to win?

Thank goodness for the (supposed) ceasefire.
 
That is incorrect!

That's not actually true Georgia never ever chose to fight Russia. They didn't even pick a fight with them so I am not sure why you came to that conclusion. Russia invaded as part of a so-called intervention on behalf of South Ossetia and not because Georgia started shooting at them.
 
Ling Ling said:
That's not actually true Georgia never ever chose to fight Russia. They didn't even pick a fight with them so I am not sure why you came to that conclusion. Russia invaded as part of a so-called intervention on behalf of South Ossetia and not because Georgia started shooting at them.
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You have now confirmed why I have you on ignore.

The truth of the matter is that Georgia would have gone in with the knowledge that Russia strongly supported the rebels. And therefore were virtually picking a fight with Russia.
 
Sorry but there was no direct indicator that Russia would actually step in, after the separatists provoked Georgian forces. I do not think you actually seem to know much about the subject because this conflict has been going on for years now and it never went this far even after spats between Ossetia and Georgia. Furthermore you indicate that Georgia was attacking the South Ossetians with the direct knowledge that Russia would then wage war on Georgia, if you look at the relative strength of the two countries that makes no sense. Additionally the Georgian president has stated on multiple occasions that a war with Russia could only be described as a "nightmare" and that an conflict with Russia was "the last thing they wanted".
So it's fine that you have me on ignore because you don't seem to know anything about that situation. You come across as rather naive because you seem to claim that the Georgians knew exactly what was going to happen. Fact is they didn't so your statement is simply wrong. Please keep me on ignore, filtering your boring sports blogs from the list would be a great boon to me.
 
I'm so sorry for having an opinion that you have mis-interpreted. Do I not speak your language?

No use arguing with a brick wall.

Note: Sorry to everyone else for taking this rather off-topic.
 
You directly stated "Why bother" that implies that they were picking a fight with Russia or that they knew Russia would eventually join the fray. Both are incorrect sorry. Or you don't understand why they are fighting that could also be a possibility.
 
There seemed, to me at least, to be rather strong indicators Russia would indeed join at some point.

No matter.

What's far more important is that the war stops NAO.

(And I suggest you find something to cool you down. As I have stated elsewhere, you seem to argue over everything, like you must prove that someone is always wrong. Until that changes, ignore seems like a good option.)
 
I'm sorry, what? I need to cool down? May I ask why? I do not think that my reaction was over the top or angry in any way. I fail to see why I need to cool down, please enlighten me as to why.
I simply replied to a point you made and stated why I thought it was incorrect. You then called me a brick wall and ironically simply ignored what I had to say. I never descended to name calling, can the same be said of you? I simply disagreed with what you said and told you why I thought it was the case, that is part of debating so I truly fail to see why that is a bad thing unless you don't want to debate. You just insulted me and ignored what I said so I cannot to see why exactly I was at fault in this situation.

I do not think that many people anticipated Russia stepping into the fight and I doubt anyone thought they would do it quite as excessive as they did. The Georgians do not want to fight Russia under any circumstances but they do want to South Ossetia to be part of Georgia or the dispute to be mediated in some way. Supporting someone and stepping into their fight are two different things, Iran never entered the war between Israel and Hezbollah even though they fund, train and openly support them.

(You are basically indicating that we could introduce a rule that everyone simply posts what they think and noone is allowed to disagree because that's basically arguing isn't it?)
 
Now now kids thats enough. Anyway I do believe the attacking/cease fire breaking/perprator is Russia I also however wonder what the U.S. stepping in will really do. I am proud of my country but I wish our goverment would stop trying to play the role of world police all the time. Yes I know Georgia is a supporter of the U.S. but even if they werent and the U.S. was not involved in this at all I cant help but feel we would still stick our hand into it.
 
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I think I should just sum it all up. You see what happened was....Georgia has been picking and pecking at Russia via. South Ossetia, the media ignores it because Georgia's a harmless country, then Russia comes in and bombs the hell out of Georgia for whatever it was they were doing to South Ossetia. Georgia begins to look for help from the UN, EU, and the USA, then comes the media. "Russia kills civilians in Georgia!" "Russia is at it again!!". I think Georgia had it coming to them and their president was asking for it. Even the Georgian citizens blame him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ
That there shows you Russia had no intention on killing Georgian or SO citizens. And the video is also proof that the media tends to hide the truth in order to get people on their side. Russia was doing what any country would do if your territory was under attack. To put them in the spotlight is simply ignorant and hypocritical.
 
Uhm I am gonna go out on a limb here and tell you that Georgia was reacting to provocation that occurred over a long period of time. Of course Georgia is to blame to, but to claim that this is the fault of Georgia is simply worng. By the way Russia killed individuals in Georgia and they destroyed as much of the military machinery as they could, it will take years to replace it and that is exactly what they wanted. They attempted to make Georgia's leadership look like maverics and destroy their military in order to push NATO membership far far away. Additionally they also aimed to destabilize the Georgian government and hope that Mikheil Saakashvili is forced out of office in the aftermath. Below I have included a more complete list by a pundit on the region.

Their claims of wanting to help defend South Ossetia's freedom is simply unbelievable and so is the statement of wanting to protect Russian citizens in the area. The latter objective is about as outrageous as they can get because it's false on so many levels. First of all the individuals that have Russian citizenship were handed it shortly before the invasion, coincedence? Furthermore no country has the right to protect it's citizens living in other countries by sending tank batallions over the border like that. In the words of the Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt: "No state has the right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of the state. Attempts to apply such a doctrine have plunged Europe into war in the past... And we have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe".

The Russians do not give a damn about the South Ossetians and their wish for freedom and self-rule and determination. This was a way of flexing military muscle and a warning signal to places like Ukraine that are attempting to turn away from the Russians and towards the West. This is what they wanted:
What do the Russians want? The world does not yet know. Possibly the Russians do not know either; their tradition is to enter a crisis with several contrary game plans and then to play it by ear. But some short-term purposes are already clear.

They want to destroy Georgia's military hardware so thoroughly it will take a decade to rebuild. That is what the roving armoured units are doing. They want to upgrade their 'peacekeeping' forces in South Ossetia and Abkhazia so Georgia will never dare to attack across their borders again. They want to discredit President Mikheil Saakashvili so utterly that the Georgian people will depose him. They want to show the world the sort of price which would be paid for taking Georgia into Nato and also to suggest that Georgia is too erratic to be a Nato partner.

But Russia may also have plans for a new relationship with Georgia. While Condoleezza Rice and other Western leaders try to implement the cease-fire, President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin would like to get rid of all these international mediators, above all the Americans. They would almost certainly prefer to impose on defeated Georgia a new bilateral treaty with the Russian Federation. Any such treaty may well include returning to Russia one or more of the military bases in Georgia which they reluctantly evacuated a few years ago.
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Source (The Guardian)
 
Ling Ling said:
Furthermore no country has the right to protect it's citizens living in other countries by sending tank batallions over the border like that. In the words of the Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt: "No state has the right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of the state."
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As I recall, Reagan invaded Grenada specifically because American citizens found themselves in a country that underwent a socialist coup. Bush didn't even bother with that cover story when he pre-emptively invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. He was "protecting" American citizens outside those countries.

I'm not saying it's right, but it is what it is when powerful nations are involved.

Ling Ling said:
Russia invaded as part of a so-called intervention on behalf of South Ossetia and not because Georgia started shooting at them.
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I'd say Russia used what happened in Kosovo as a pretext. Kosovo seceded from Russian-supported Serbia with the support and diplomatic recognition of the U.S. and most European nations. Russia said there would be consequences and as it turned out, there were. South Ossetia is the mirror image of Kosovo.

Ling Ling said:
The Russians do not give a damn about the South Ossetians and their wish for freedom and self-rule and determination. This was a way of flexing military muscle and a warning signal to places like Ukraine that are attempting to turn away from the Russians and towards the West.
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I agree. They felt they'd been taken lightly after the Soviet Union collapsed. Now, flush with oil revenues, they are feeling their oats and no longer feel they can be ignored by the western powers. They are flexing their muscles.

To add another dimension to this discussion, I have to admire the chutzpah of the Bush administration trying to muster international indignation about Russia invading Georgia. I don't remember any indignation when Israel invaded Lebanon recently to battle Hezbollah. Wasn't the U.S. a cheerleader?
 
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