Bulbapedia Separate pages for IQ skills

[kelvSYC]

If you know my personal Bulbapedia history, I've generally avoided editing Bulbapedia for the past three years over the Bulbapedia admins then constantly reverting EVERY SINGLE EDIT relevant to Mystery Dungeon. Thus, the quality of Bulbapedia when it comes to MD is heavily lacking.

One thing that there was a war over was whether there needed to be separate pages for IQ skills, as IQ skills are somewhat analogous to abilities in the main series. Given the state of the IQ page, I think it's time to bring this issue back up again. Mainly because I don't want to repeat myself when I want to say how PP Saver (in 6 IQ groups) affects No-Charger (in two IQ groups, though only group F also has PP Saver) or against Pokémon with Pressure. (For the record, PP Saver neutralizes Pressure, but does not affect No-Charger.)

Any thoughts on this?

 

[MAGNEDETH]

not to throw you off-topic, but id have to think theres a very good reason any staff would revert you 'every time' so instead of just slapping us in the face, you could ask 'why' first and im sure we would have a fully explainable answer. if youd like to discuss that, feel free to PM me with any specific details.

now then, let the discussion continue unabated (i cant offer any input here as ive never played those games).

 

[Bikini Miltank]

I think it all comes down to content. If the pages aren't going to be stubs, then I'm in favour of IQ pages. Perhaps we could develop a few templates for use on them?

 

[Politoed666]

I've probably done more on Mystery Dungeon than anyone else on staff, but that was awhile ago... I still retain a lot of knowledge about the games, though.

I'll take a look later, gotta run.

 

[kelvSYC]

not to throw you off-topic, but id have to think theres a very good reason any staff would revert you 'every time' so instead of just slapping us in the face, you could ask 'why' first and im sure we would have a fully explainable answer. if youd like to discuss that, feel free to PM me with any specific details.

now then, let the discussion continue unabated (i cant offer any input here as ive never played those games).

I did in the past. Admins back then (and probably still do) said that everything MD was pretty much cruft. That was a slap in my face, since MD is still a Pokémon game, even if the mechanics are mostly the same but with notable differences. I've pretty much boycotted Bulbapedia since then.

 

[Politoed666]

Okay, I've refreshed my memory a little bit, and I'm going to say that, yes, IQ skills should have separate pages. They absolutely should have separate pages... who reverted you on that the first time, or poo-poo'd that idea? I'll consult my PMD strategy guides later and make some lists... Are you willing to help, or were you just bringing this forward as something someone else needs to do? I'll get the coding started a little later or tomorrow and make a couple practice pages, and we'll work from there.

But yes, IQ skills definitely ought to have their own pages; as you said, they're basically analogous to abilities in the main series. Good call.

 

[kelvSYC]

I'm going to keep the identities of the people who reverted them to myself so that they can eat their crow. I can help with the content, but be forewarned that some skills may need radical overhauls to potentially large parts of Bulbapedia. However, due to my ongoing boycott, I might not be willing to edit some of the pages myself.

A couple of obvious strategy notes that should be included:
* Moves that target friend and foe alike (like EQ or a line range move) are not affected by Nontraitor.
* Nonsleeper also prevents self-inflicted sleep.
* Bodyguard doesn't work against moves that target multiple targets (room moves, "everyone around you" moves, Wide Slash, etc.)
* Absolute Mover doesn't allow you to walk diagonally into walls, so it doesn't grant ghost mobility to Palkia.
* Pokémon with Wary Fighter do not take a step back from missing line-range attacks even at point-blank range. You will back up from missing a room attack (so Silver Wind in a Monster House might cause you to back straight out of the room...) or from Protect failing, etc.
* Don't equip Scope Lens on anyone with Sharp Shooter.
* Don't equip Heal Ribbon on anyone with Quick Healer.
* Budew and Riolu can both learn Brick Tough. The moment they do, they may evolve.
* Anyone who learns Lava Evader may learn the elemental Hyper Beams and Draco Meteor if they are at L72.
* Type-Advantage Master is useless on anyone with Normalize.
* STAB is counted as one "advantage" for the purposes of Weak-Type Picker.
* Turn off All-Terrain Hiker with any Pokémon that has floating mobility. Turn it off for Pokémon in the Shuppet, Banette, and Darkrai families unless you don't want them going into walls.
* Lava Evader should be turned off for Fire-types and those not of Fire-type but with lava mobility (Groudon) unless you want them to deliberately avoid lava...

A couple of pages that might need to be modified for the benefit of the pages:
* All move pages will need to have their range type and target types added. Important for Intimidator, which doesn't work against line range or room range moves from point blank.
* Gluttony - Energy Saver affects belly use, so does Gluttony.
* Pressure - May need to point to No-Charger and PP Saver.
* SolarBeam - SolarBeam in sun + No-Charger = 1 PP, not 2.

A couple of pages that might help, that are missing from Bulbapedia:
* Movement Speed - a key mechanic of MD, replacing the speed stat from the main games. A Pokémon can have up to five speed buffs and five speed debuffs, which last for some number of turns (there's a reason why Agility is incredibly powerful in MD). Each buff cancels out a debuff, but movement speed is clamped to +4 (4 actions per turn) and -1 (one action every 2 turns). Time Tripper and Speed Boost award permanent buffs, so doesn't count against the limit.
* Stat stages in MD. See my other post on that. Long and short, +10 and -10 instead of +6 and -6.

 

[Politoed666]

Ah. Perhaps this is why you've been reverted...

As you say yourself, a large portion of the changes you're suggesting are, in fact, "strategy" tips. Bulbapedia is not a walkthrough; our aim is not to help players of the games by telling them what to do or not do. Rather, Bulbapedia is a site players can use to gain information regarding everything Pokemon. It's an information site, not a help site.

The changes you suggest near the bottom are legitimate, though, and ought to be added. I'll try to take care of those at some point in the near future. Your initial suggestion regarding separate pages for IQ skills still stands as a good idea as well.

 

[kelvSYC]

Ah. Perhaps this is why you've been reverted...

As you say yourself, a large portion of the changes you're suggesting are, in fact, "strategy" tips. Bulbapedia is not a walkthrough; our aim is not to help players of the games by telling them what to do or not do. Rather, Bulbapedia is a site players can use to gain information regarding everything Pokemon. It's an information site, not a help site.

I don't think the blindingly obvious or the slightly less obvious should be excluded just because it's "strategy". Consider this:

* Riolu is in Group C
* Group C Pokémon learn Brick Tough at 100 IQ.
* Riolu evolves at 100 IQ with a Sun Ribbon.
* Therefore, once Riolu learns Brick Tough, it can evolve with a Sun Ribbon.

Right now, you'd have to look at at least 4-5 pages in order to get that last line, when it's easier to state it outright in, say, the page of Brick Tough. Similarly with Budew's evolution with Brick Tough, the learning of elemental Hyper Beams/Draco Meteor with Lava Evader, etc. This is, IMO, in line with pages for moves and abilities; simply details that the in-game descriptions will invariably miss.

I'd consider strategy to be stuff like "Spore is useful before beating Primal Dialga, but not so much afterwards, due to most enemies having Self-Curer or Nonsleeper" or "Drifblim can potentially make 4 room attacks a turn, thanks to Unburden, Ominous Wind, and Silver Wind, making him good for clearing Monster Houses". Statements that are more apt if there was a Smogon ranking for MD.

 

[MisterE13]

I actually see a lot of these being valid points if reworded a little:

* Moves that target friend and foe alike (like EQ or a line range move) are not affected by Nontraitor. (On Nontraitor's page)
* Nonsleeper also prevents self-inflicted sleep. (On Nonsleeper's page)
* Bodyguard doesn't work against moves that target multiple targets (room moves, "everyone around you" moves, Wide Slash, etc.) (On Bodyguard's page)
* Absolute Mover doesn't allow Palkia to walk diagonally into walls, making it distinct from Ghost mobility. (On Absolute Mover's page)
* Pokémon with Wary Fighter do not take a step back from missing line-range attacks even at point-blank range. When taking a step back from a room attack, the Pokémon might back straight out of the room...) or from Protect failing, etc. (On Wary Fighter's page)
* It is useless to equip a Scope Lens on a Pokémon with Sharp Shooter as that skill functions identically to the item. (Maybe Trivia on Sharp Shooter and/or Scope Lens's pages)
* It is useless to equip a Heal Ribbon on a Pokémon with Quick Healer as that skill functions identically to the item. (Maybe Trivia on Quick Healer and/or Heal Ribbon's pages)
* The ability Normalize renders Type-Advantage Master useless. (On Type-Advantage Master?)
* STAB is counted as one "advantage" for the purposes of Weak-Type Picker. (Maybe, kinda unclear)
* Pokémon with Floating or Ghost mobility are hindered by All-Terrain Hiker as it prevents them from taking full advantage of their mobility. (On All-Terrain Hiker's page)
* It is useless to equip Lava Evader to a Pokémon with lava mobility as it will cause them to avoid lava which already has no effect on them. (On Lava Evader's page)

Most of those seem legitimate as they explain the specific mechanics of the Skill or a limitation thereof. It's like listing the moves affected by Sheer Force or stating that teaching Substitute or Rest to a Shedinja is generally useless.

 

[Transfinite]

I did in the past. Admins back then (and probably still do) said that everything MD was pretty much cruft. That was a slap in my face, since MD is still a Pokémon game, even if the mechanics are mostly the same but with notable differences. I've pretty much boycotted Bulbapedia since then.

For the record, having looked at the talk pages and edit histories in question, no one used the word "cruft". All the admins said was that there wasn't enough information to warrant separate pages. Instead of pointing out what you've pointed out here, you flounced off in a huff.

 

[Bikini Miltank]

Yeah... while I'm in agreement that separate pages for IQ skills is a great idea, it's the sort of thing that's best discussed beforehand and not launched straight into, since the latter approach often results in mostly-empty pages that can sit unfinished for years. Discussing it here allows us to come up with ideas for templates and layouts that would ensure all pages had a unified style, and would make the adding of information much easier. A big undertaking like this requires discussion, and usually the nod from admins. So let's discuss it, and hopefully get it done.

However... and I'm speaking without my mod-hat on here... you really might want to consider toning down your apparent contempt for Bulbapedia's staff. If you feel your previous contributions were unfairly deleted, that's something for you to take up with the admins privately. This thread is not the place to air your grievances, and I wouldn't want people to be turned off a very good idea because it was presented in an unnecessarily combative way.

 

[kelvSYC]

For the record, having looked at the talk pages and edit histories in question, no one used the word "cruft". All the admins said was that there wasn't enough information to warrant separate pages. Instead of pointing out what you've pointed out here, you flounced off in a huff.

...which is to imply that it was cruft. When someone says that "there isn't enough information" when there is, then they are being willfully ignorant, and thus dismissing what is there as cruft. The information, however, is quite relevant, so the positions of the Bulbapedia admins are quite unfounded. That was three years ago when MD2 was still new. However, I still maintain that they are in the wrong in a "be bold" stance (and possibly holding an anti-MD bias), and I continue to maintain a boycott over their actions. If they want to add in the information themselves, they can have their fun, but they are on their own.

However... and I'm speaking without my mod-hat on here... you really might want to consider toning down your apparent contempt for Bulbapedia's staff. If you feel your previous contributions were unfairly deleted, that's something for you to take up with the admins privately. This thread is not the place to air your grievances, and I wouldn't want people to be turned off a very good idea because it was presented in an unnecessarily combative way.

Oh, I've taken them up with the admins privately to no avail. That was three years ago, and I wouldn't be posting this if I had still held a grudge. But with the rumors that one of the admins that opposed me back then is no longer in power, it should be a good time to bring it back onto the table and leave the past where it lies. Not combative at all.

 

[Transfinite]

...which is to imply that it was cruft. When someone says that "there isn't enough information" when there is, then they are being willfully ignorant, and thus dismissing what is there as cruft. The information, however, is quite relevant, so the positions of the Bulbapedia admins are quite unfounded. That was three years ago when MD2 was still new. However, I still maintain that they are in the wrong in a "be bold" stance (and possibly holding an anti-MD bias), and I continue to maintain a boycott over their actions. If they want to add in the information themselves, they can have their fun, but they are on their own.

Note that I also said, "Instead of pointing out what you've pointed out here, you flounced off in a huff." If there was enough information, you should have said so. The admins who reverted your edits were clearly unfamiliar with the games, and were going off of the information you yourself provided.