SPOILERS: Masters Eight Discussion/Speculation Thread

[ManUtd22]

OK this post for who said Paul, iris and again even if I know that my posts will be thrown away again as always. Anyway, I will try my best to answer even if no one answered as always.

Did you forget to tobias and battle pyramid? Do yo7 think that Paul deserve it and tobias who had latios and darkrai and who knows whom are the rest? He is the champion such as alain even if he is much stronger and didn't been defeated in his matches. Just lost two rounds with Ash and most mat he's was defeating his opponents 6-0.

Battle pyramid who catched the three legendary pokemons, and nearby to catch regigegas and for me then I hoped that he will catch the both new regi pokemons from galar chiho whom are regidraco and regiliki. Do you think that Paul again and iris will match his battle skill?

Iris the most lucky one in all anime. Everything for her was handled to her in silver blatter as this thread always say and You can see our opinion from this thread Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? which completed 11 years anniversary.


She wasn't that skill at all in all seasons, and her win was the writers gave her even if she doesn't deserve one single match.

Also, they will never catch kukui level

Note: "you can ignore my post because I know you will do so. When if I asked why? Even if asked when you will at least like or answer it one time? If even I should by loaded voice. Even I angered or being sad or even I cried".

 

[Queen Cynthia]

I will admit that I don't have a problem with Iris and Alain being part of the Masters 8 over Paul.

Well, I wouldn't have a problem either if there hadn't been that unnecessary Super Class battle between Ash and Iris where the former pretty easily beat the latter. So, considering that devastating defeat, I think it feels very forced that Iris is now supposed to rank 7th in the world all of a sudden. Of course, from all we know by now Iris has to be in the Masters Eight because she's a champion. But there would have been tons of interesting trainers and rivals Ash met during his adventures. Why couldn't they bring back one of them for that Super Class battle? Why Iris of all people when we're going to see her in the Masters Eight anyway? Iris being part of the Masters eight isn't a bad decision if you ask me but that battle back then definitely was.

As for Alain, well, it just makes more sense to have him instead of Paul because Ash has a lot more to gain from a rematch with the former. I mean, he's already beaten Paul. Their story and rivalry is over. There's honestly no real good narrative reason or stakes in Ash beating him again.

Instead of that implausible winning streak in the Hyper Class the writers could have preferred Paul over that Drasna battle for example and have Ash actually lose for a change. Not only would that have been cathartic for Ash, it would also have turned out to be much more intersting for us as the audience.

 

[ManUtd22]

OK this post for who said Paul, iris and again even if I know that my posts will be thrown away again as always. Anyway, I will try my best to answer even if no one answered as always.

Did you forget to tobias and battle pyramid? Do yo7 think that Paul deserve it and tobias who had latios and darkrai and who knows whom are the rest? He is the champion such as alain even if he is much stronger and didn't been defeated in his matches. Just lost two rounds with Ash and most mat he's was defeating his opponents 6-0.

Battle pyramid who catched the three legendary pokemons, and nearby to catch regigegas and for me then I hoped that he will catch the both new regi pokemons from galar chiho whom are regidraco and regiliki. Do you think that Paul again and iris will match his battle skill?

Iris the most lucky one in all anime. Everything for her was handled to her in silver blatter as this thread always say and You can see our opinion from this thread Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? which completed 11 years anniversary.


She wasn't that skill at all in all seasons, and her win was the writers gave her even if she doesn't deserve one single match.

Also, they will never catch kukui level

Note: "you can ignore my post because I know you will do so. When if I asked why? Even if asked when you will at least like or answer it one time? If even I should by loaded voice. Even I angered or being sad or even I cried".

Gla thant I wrote Note: "you can ignore my post because I know you will do so. When if I asked why? Even if asked when you will at least like or answer it one time? If even I should by loaded voice. Even I angered or being sad or even I cried". Because I already know that you will do

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Well, I wouldn't have a problem either if there hadn't been that unnecessary Super Class battle between Ash and Iris where the former pretty easily beat the latter. So, considering that devastating defeat, I think it feels very forced that Iris is now supposed to rank 7th in the world all of a sudden. Of course, from all we know by now Iris has to be in the Masters Eight because she's a champion. But there would have been tons of interesting trainers and rivals Ash met during his adventures. Why couldn't they bring back one of them for that Super Class battle? Why Iris of all people when we're going to see her in the Masters Eight anyway? Iris being part of the Masters eight isn't a bad decision if you ask me but that battle back then definitely was.

Was the defeat actually that devastating, though? Because from what I remember, Iris gave Ash a very difficult fight and he only barely won. And you need to keep in mind that Ash is technically a Champion as well, so it's not like Iris lost to someone below her league. As for why he had to face her instead of someone else in Super Class, I'm willing to bet that it's because she's a former travelling companion, so having her and Ash battle is a decent way of showcasing how much Iris has grown in the time that she was having her own journey. Remember that Iris is also one of the more polarizing companions, so having her appear as part of the Masters 8 without any foreshadowing would've likely caused an uproar, but by introducing her as Unova's Champion earlier, this is mitigated a bit.

Another reason Iris and Ash had their battle early is likely because due to Cynthia, Alain and Lance being teased as Masters 8 opponents, there was just no other place where a battle against Iris could've fit, since it's almost certain that Ash is not gonna face her again. Sure, you could say that Ash battling Iris isn't even necessary, but I do get why the writers would want to squeeze in a battle between the two, seeing how they have the connection of having once been traveling partners and all. I do agree that they probably could've put that battle in a higher class, though.

Instead of that implausible winning streak in the Hyper Class the writers could have preferred Paul over that Drasna battle for example and have Ash actually lose for a change.

Um, sorry but I disagree XD Ash has already lost to Paul enough times. That guy doesn't need to come in and beat him again. I do understand the argument that Ash maybe could've used another loss, but why does it have to be against Paul when Drasna's a freaking Elite Four?

 

[Sai]

I thought it was also rather obvious Ash and Iris had their battle early because they're not going to get a rematch because there's no time. If Ash only gets to battle 3 or so people they're not going to waste one of the fights on Iris again. Having him battle her early and then them both working their way up to Master Class to battle different people makes sense.

 

[puddleths]

Um, sorry but I disagree XD Ash has already lost to Paul enough times. That guy doesn't need to come in and beat him again. I do understand the argument that Ash maybe could've used another loss, but why does it have to be against Paul when Drasna's a freaking Elite Four?

Ash's greatest achievement prior to winning the Alola League was conquering the Battle Frontier, and he immediately got beat by Gary. A guy who retired from being a trainer. Losing to Paul wouldn't be that much of a disservice. It's not like Infernape would be going down.

I've seen so many arguments about how Iris becoming champion and reaching Masters 8 off-screen is fine. Meanwhile, Paul has been gone even longer, and he's written off as too weak

 

[Queen Cynthia]

Was the defeat actually that devastating, though? Because from what I remember, Iris gave Ash a very difficult fight and he only barely won.

OK I'd say it depends on how you look at it. I remember being surprised that Ash beat Haxorus, which is supposed to be Iris' ace, relatively easily. But maybe we see that differently here.

Remember that Iris is also one of the more polarizing companions, so having her appear as part of the Masters 8 without any foreshadowing would've likely caused an uproar,

I don't know if I can agree here. Many fans of the Anime are also familiar with the games, so they will know Iris has become the Unova champion by now. And even if the writers caused an uproar, it wouldn't be the first time and I don't really think they would care that much anyways.
Also, I know this is debatable but to me it woud be a much bigger sign of respect not to introduce a champion until we've reached the Masters Eight. A champion being in the Super Class and then, all of a sudden, in the Masters Eight struck me as odd.

Um, sorry but I disagree XD Ash has already lost to Paul enough times. That guy doesn't need to come in and beat him again. I do understand the argument that Ash maybe could've used another loss, but why does it have to be against Paul when Drasna's a freaking Elite Four?

Why not? XD To me Paul is the epitome of an "eternal rival", or to put it differently, Paul is what Gary used to be when he was still a Pokemon trainer. My only concern is they might not come up with a proper conclusion of Paul's story or they'll turn him into another Gary, meaning that Paul now prefers doing something else over being a Pokemon trainer. But we'll see in the end. Just hope we won't have to wait that long for his return anymore.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Well it looks like that one rumor that had Iris vs. Leon and Steven vs. Alain might be out. It said JN115 would be Mustard, but its the opening for the Masters 8.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Masters Tournament is starting in June. And I'm all for it!

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

JUST GIVE ME ASH-GRENINJA DEFEATING ALAINS MEGA CHARIZARD X I DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE REST OF THE TOURNAMENT

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Ash's greatest achievement prior to winning the Alola League was conquering the Battle Frontier, and he immediately got beat by Gary. A guy who retired from being a trainer. Losing to Paul wouldn't be that much of a disservice. It's not like Infernape would be going down.

I've seen so many arguments about how Iris becoming champion and reaching Masters 8 off-screen is fine. Meanwhile, Paul has been gone even longer, and he's written off as too weak

I'm pretty sure I do remember people either complaining or mocking Ash for that loss to Gary, so that battle actually was seen as a "disservice", which renders your argument moot. It probably only goes unmentioned now because the loss to fresh-out-the-lab rookies Trip and Snivy is way more infamous. It is worth mentioning, though, that Ash wasn't a Champion-level trainer yet at that point either.

Also, I never said that Paul was "too weak". Just that Ash losing to him again when he already battled and lost to him plenty of times in the DPP era just wouldn't be as satisfying as a loss to an elite trainer whom Ash has never battled before.

Why not? XD To me Paul is the epitome of an "eternal rival", or to put it differently, Paul is what Gary used to be when he was still a Pokemon trainer. My only concern is they might not come up with a proper conclusion of Paul's story or they'll turn him into another Gary, meaning that Paul now prefers doing something else over being a Pokemon trainer. But we'll see in the end. Just hope we won't have to wait that long for his return anymore.

Because, and I know this is 100% subjective, but I... just kinda have problems with Paul as a character. Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of Paul, I do think that his battles with Ash are among the best in the anime, and the story that resulted around him is genuinely really good: Ash having a rival that pushes his skills to the absolute limit and Infernape overcoming past trauma to unlock his true potential is absolute gold. I just think Paul himself has a few issues that are unfortunately kinda big ones:

Firstly, there's the fact that Ash's and Paul's training methods were billed as being "equally valid" by the narrative, yet because Ash's underdog status was still going strong back then Paul won the vast majority of battles between the two, which kinda hurt that whole aspect of both training methods supposedly being equals.

Secondly, well, the simple fact that Paul essentially abused Chimchar and recieved neither commeupance nor character development as a result: Paul at no point is shown to second-guess or question his methiods, at least not the same way Ash is shown to question his. The absolute closest Paul gets to having anything remotely resembling growth as a person being that he complimented Electivire for his performace against Infernape despite the fact that the former lost, but that came completely out of the blue since there was zero buildup to it. Oh sure, one could argue that Infernape beating him in the end counts as Paul's commeupance, but since that's framed as him finally seeing Ash's perspective, it really doesn't come accross as such.

Because of all this, Paul coming back to deal Ash one of his few Journeys defeats despite the fact that Ash is one of the ones who made it to the Masters 8 and Paul didn't would just feel like the ultimate show of character shilling for Paul. Something he already got plenty of during the DPP era.

 

[Turbo]

Well it looks like that one rumor that had Iris vs. Leon and Steven vs. Alain might be out. It said JN115 would be Mustard, but its the opening for the Masters 8.

I think that was just someone prediction mixed with those magazine scans that got misconstrued as a leak/spoiler again

 

[puddleths]

I'm pretty sure I do remember people either complaining or mocking Ash for that loss to Gary, so that battle actually was seen as a "disservice", which renders your argument moot. It probably only goes unmentioned now because the loss to fresh-out-the-lab rookies Trip and Snivy is way more infamous.

Also, I never said that Paul was "too weak". Just that Ash losing to him again when he already battled and lost to him plenty of times in the DPP era just wouldn't be as satisfying as a loss to an elite trainer whom Ash has never battled before.

My point being Ash could be written to lose to anyone, with Gary beating him being a prime example. And Ash losing to Paul wouldn't necessarily have the same issue as that loss to Gary because Paul could have accomplished anything after his last appearance at the Sinnoh League. That's my argument against the idea of Paul being "too weak" for the Masters 8. It wasn't directed at you.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I get that, but didn't Ash already lose to him enough times? Paul already got extremely favorable treatment in DPP despite his actions easily being on par with those of trainers who by contrast rightfully got thoroughly humiliated, so for him to return in Journeys just so he can be among the small hanful of trainers who've actually beaten Ash in this saga would be the ultimate show of nepotism.

 

[puddleths]

I get that, but didn't Ash already lose to him enough times? Paul already got extremely favorable treatment in DPP despite his actions easily being on par with those of trainers who by contrast rightfully got thoroughly humiliated, so for him to return in Journeys just so he can be among the small hanful of trainers who've actually beaten Ash in this saga would be the ultimate show of nepotism.

Favorable treatment? Paul got absolutely wrecked by Brandon, then went on to lose at the league against the guy he always had a leg-up on.

You want a character who's always gotten favorable treatment? See Iris.

Also nepotism is not the word you're looking for. Paul isn't a relative to anyone on the anime's staff.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Ash's greatest achievement prior to winning the Alola League was conquering the Battle Frontier, and he immediately got beat by Gary. A guy who retired from being a trainer. Losing to Paul wouldn't be that much of a disservice. It's not like Infernape would be going down.

I've seen so many arguments about how Iris becoming champion and reaching Masters 8 off-screen is fine. Meanwhile, Paul has been gone even longer, and he's written off as too weak

Let's be honest here man,vast majority of the fanbase really couldn't care less about Paul being apart of the Masters 8,they just assumed he'd be in it since he was expected to make his long overdue return to the series.If it appears that he didn't participate in the PWC most of the fanbase won't even bat an eye and will move on.It's just unfortunate that people are still stuck on his past history with Infernape back when it was still a Chimchar that they don't want to see anything happen to him in a positive manner.

Then you have people that say his rivalry ended with Ash back in DP so there's no need for him to make a return even though that makes no sense considering he's more than likely still an active trainer,has just as much experience as Ash and this tournament has allowed trainers including ones that Ash met or battled from all regions to participate in.Lastly is with Iris becoming Unova Champion in just a matter of 2 series after BW,the fanbase will go along with that but will refuse to believe Paul couldn't reach that same level or doesn't deserve to because of his history with Chimchar,some will go as far as to say he should've been stripped of his pokemon.So to me this all comes down to not liking the character at all,Paul is widely praised for being arguably Ash's best rival but that's as far as it goes.

Paul could've easily been written in Alain's spot,gotten a new powerup and then lost/won against Cynthia,but no that can't happen.

 

[puddleths]

So to me this all comes down to not liking the character at all,Paul is widely praised for being arguably Ash's best rival but that's as far as it goes.

I hear ya. I'd rather people just say they don't like the character than say he isn't Masters 8 material when Iris is in.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Favorable treatment? Paul got absolutely wrecked by Brandon, then went on to lose at the league against the guy he always had a leg-up on.

You want a character who's always gotten favorable treatment? See Iris.

Also nepotism is not the word you're looking for. Paul isn't a relative to anyone on the anime's staff.

Okay, I was not aware that nepotism was exclusively used in regards to family members, so thanks for the clarification.

That aside, being wrecked by Brandon doesn't really count for much in my opinion because Brandon is explicitly stated to be at least close to Elite Four levels of strength. So saying that Paul losing to a borderline E4-level trainer as proof that his treatment wasn't favorable is like saying that being a duke isn't all that great because a king still outranks him.

I hear ya. I'd rather people just say they don't like the character than say he isn't Masters 8 material when Iris is in.

I did say that, though:

I know this is 100% subjective, but I... just kinda have problems with Paul as a character.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

The whole story behind the rivalry was amazing, but Paul as a person is not that admirable or worth glorifying. He was outright abusive to Chimchar, clearly not understanding that his methods don't work for everyone. Its like some adults who don't understand how to deal with a kid on the autism spectrum.

Plus, Paul was consistently and needlessly hostile. Ash could simply say hello and ask how he was doing and he'd reply "That's none of your business!" in the rudest manner possible. Time after time he'd display this needlessly rude behavior. His reasoning was Ash reminded him too much of his brother, who he viewed as weak for ending his career after losing to Brandon. He did display this behavior to most people though.

It'll be interesting though to see if his behavior has changed in any way since his last appearance in DP.

 

[Turbo]

Throwing my 2 cents about Paul and a little Iris

I think it's how people view rivals when it comes to Paul

Like with Iris she wasn't a “rival” so her growth is more treated as a former main character mixed with her game counterpart progressions like with a Serena or Misty

Whereas with Paul all rivals with the exception of Gary were left behind in one sense or another
Whether Ash beat them and became irrelevant or Ash lost to them because Ash had to lose prior to SM

So you have the conflict of that if Ash has gotten stronger everyone else has too as we see examples like Misty Iris Brock Gary and other characters that have gotten stronger
Or
Ash has gotten so much stronger now he is way better than everyone else like (I know people don't like it) how he one shot Clemont someone who was more or less on par with him in XY and beat Wallace in a small battle or just that he beat people that were more or less on his level or better at one point like Misty Iris Bea etc

Plus there's a thought or belief out there whether through personal reasons or just the story writing proess that once Ash beats someone their stories are essentially over
Like I remember everyone didn't think Iris would return in journeys because Ash beat her and her role is done

So Ash beat Paul in DP “cementing” that Ash is better so we don't need to see Paul again

Which also doesn't cover that Paul was going through all the same regions Ash did up to DO and wasn't planning on retiring like Gary after Ash beat him

So yeah if you think between DP and now Ash becoming essentially champion level makes him on a unobtainable level to his past rivals minus Alain then that's fair
Or if you think since Ash grew so much it's reasonable someone like a Paul could have similar levels of growth that Paul could challenge and/or beat him then that's fine too

I think it's just depend how you view the rival role and Paul himself as I don't think there's a right or wrong way to handle him when he comes to his strength as Ash is at the point where strength-wise either is plausible