Mafia TWR Season '16 Mafia - 9/5/16 - ENDGAME: Everybody Was Elieson... before War Room Day (TOWN WIN)

[jdthebud]

Also @Sunsette, you didn't answer my other question on #211:

I like this post and agree with most of your points. However, it seems like are you are assuming Lunaala is town. Why?

 

[Elementar]

My thoughts is that Luna viewed as a supposed bandwagon as suspicious. I've already said that I disagree with Luna on that point, but I can definitely understand Luna's viewpoint. There were two votes on a single player (Jack, I believe?) for no apparent reason. I don't view this viewpoint as suspicious. It's not really even worth following up.

However, I do have to wonder about Elieson's insistence on this matter.

Vote: Elieson

Just curious, but is that your only reasoning? Elieson voting for Luna?

The thing that gets me about Elie is that he's been good and active and is laying out his reasoning well enough, but I'm having trouble connecting the dots. He wanted to see Lunaala's reaction, fair. He laid out the different angles that it could all be coming from, and I get them and they make sense, but I'm not really seeing why he and the other people on the bandwagon still have their sights on Lunaala for essentially not making a stellar defense after they suddenly accumulated a bandwagon. I'm going to go ahead and agree that Flop is the most suspicious person on the wagon right now, given what I said before about not needing a pressure vote when there were already three or four votes on Lunaala (very early on in the day phase, at that) and not providing too much to back it up after the fact. (And I do know Flop is busy irl and hoping to be subbed out, but that doesn't make the wonky vote look any less suspicious.)

Mido looks like normal Mido now that she's able to post, so null read there. The wallposts don't clear her of course, but they make me a lot less nervous than a vote with no explanation.

Soulmaster's a little sketchy, might be some lowkey buddying and/or bussing going on between him/Elementar/Elie given the various back-and-forths. That's a dynamic I want to keep my eye on.

Vote: Doctor Floptopus

I agree with most of those reads. However, I completely disregarded SM's reasoning and I was thinking of voting for Elieson before I saw their post.

Also @HumanDawn, I could be wrong but you seem to be changing targets quite often.

I think that that's a good thing for one or two players to do day 1. HD seems very town to me, as their trying to find several routes they can explore and get the most out of a hard day phase. It's good to get everyone involved and contributing to get the most out of what we have.

Lunaala: Eh, as I said before I think they were just overreacting, and in turn I do not think it was a scumslip.

I have to agree with that.

The time for joke voting has passed...not to mention I unvoted you. What gives?

Yeah, at the time, it didn't seem like you gave much reasoning Mido. You seem to be a bit cryptic in your wording. It could just be me.

I like this post and agree with most of your points. However, it seems like are you are assuming Lunaala is town. Why?

This seems a bit like my situation early on. But it would be good to see what Sunsette says.

Soulmaster is a town read and you decided t pressure a townread..............................................why?

I think he meant that I am a town read... So yeah, just backing up HD there.

 

[Sunsette]

@jdthebud I wouldn't say I'm assuming Lunaala is town so much as that I'm not seeing a convincing case that they're scum. The way that several people flocked to defend them as a newbie *could* be scum defending scum or scum buddying town, bit it isn't super out of the ordinary for Bulbagarden and could just as easily not be an indicator of anything g. It's not enough for me to follow a lynch on them.

 

[Elementar]

Time for reads.

Lunaala - Slight town lean. I think what they've been picked up on have mostly been small mistakes that aren't really scummy. They're weird, but not really scummy.
Midorikawa - Null. They've seemed quite cryptic and sly. Usually, Mido is the town leader and they're always being straight and helpful. She seems like she's dodging around and playing with words, and they appear to be joke-voting. However, they say they said their reasoning, but it looks weird overall. Just a different playstyle from most games I've played with her. As others have said, she's been hard to read this game.
Elieson - Slight scum lean. They pursued Luna for little things that I didn't personally find that bad. However, HD has helped my opinion on them and they look a bit better because I can understand where they are coming from.
Alex Kaz - Null. Slife didn't really post and Alex needs to catch up.
HumanDawn - Strong Town. They've been trying to find multiple possibilities and outlets by applying pressure to many people, including inactives to try and boost their activity. Really scumhunting and providing as much of a contribution as possible.
Sunsette - Null-Slight town - I can see similarities in some of the things they've said compared to me, and some have misinterpreted that. I think that they've tried to help town, and they've answered questions pretty well.
Soulmaster - Slight town. I can see their reasoning behind their vote on Elieson, but I don't think that they expressed it that well and they haven't really come to defend themself much. It may be a scum read if their defense isn't overly good.
Molten Eevee - Town. They've been providing info and askin many questions to other players to try and gather information for the town. Active in scumhunting, which is really good.
jdthebud - Null-slight scum. They seem to be overacting to small things such as a joke vote from Mido (but apparently there was a little reasoning behind it). As Mido has said, they haven't been the most helpful in scumhunting, but they're not the worst. That's why I'm giving them a null-slight scum read.
leetic - Hasn't really posted.
Elementar - Very strong town read
Eye Gel - Has been too inactive for me to read.
Calvin ッ - Slight town. I'm getting a townie vibe from their posts, and they have reads that I agree with. They have a good understanding of the game at the moment, but they haven't been the most active in scumhunting. Still, they have been an asset to the town.
returnofmastercrazyhand - Null. ROMCH has a very similar playstyle for both factions as far as I can tell. They haven't really helped town, but they haven't done much in general :/
jackatlasred - Scum lean. They haven't done much for town at all, besides stating things that aren't really needed. They've been pretty inactive, but I don't like the tone of their posts and I would like them to do more for town.
Doctor Floptopus - Null. Their late vote onto the Luna BW is suspicious, but I want to see their reaction and defense to the votes on them before making a complete read.

 

[Midorikawa]

@Midorikawa

jdthebud Town read Elementar, not Soulmaster. Are you still going to stick to your jdthebud vote?

Yeah I misread that. That's my bad.

Mido, I asked Sunsette directly about "that stuff", not sure how you missed that part.

I was playing catch up after work while watching glee and trying to explain something to someone. It gets confusing.

Anyway, I never said Soulmaster was a town read, though I can see why you would think that since I kind of lumped him in with Elementar. Bad wording on my part. I wanted to pressure him because while the reasoning for the vote seemed to be genuine at the time, there has been lots more content since then and he hasn't said anything about it.

Yes very bad wording on your part. Elementar has a name that blends in so I totally misread. So my bad.

As for the reasoning behind your vote on me, I thought that might have been the case after HD said the same thing, but it was still a strange looking post.

I thought it was made obvious by mine and HD;s posts. I wasn't intentionally being confusing. I was trying to make it a bit funny.

What do you think about the current leading vote-getter, Dr. Flop?

I don't care for the case. I don't really see Flop's scummiest. I honestly don't see any cases that I agree with.

Just curious, but is that your only reasoning? Elieson voting for Luna?

Isn't that good enough for him? Multiple people have pointed out things about Elieson's case on Lunaala. Eevee just summed that up for exactly what it is.

 

[Alex Kaz]

So, for now I'll talk about today's MVPs, Luna and Elie.

First thing I wanna say that no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) is that while Luna's post of finding the double vote on jack suspicious is suspicious itself, in the manner that it tries to throw suspicion on the ones who jokingly voted jack, it might also be Luna defending jack. So, if Luna happens to flip scum, jack might be also worth looking into, and vice versa. I don't think it would grow into an actual bw, but still, the intention of stopping it is there. But from the townie perspective, it's not that weird to call out a potential bw either. The keyword is motivation.

I really like this post :

4 possibilities
Elietown/Lunatown (intown fighting, unfortunate possibility)
Eliescum/Lunascum (scumbuddies bussing)
Elietown/Lunascum (possible)
Eliescum/Lunatown (possible)

It seemed weird to me at first, that Elie himself included the possibility of him bussing. Mostly because it hadn't occurred to me. But on second thought, this post shows self confidence. He is willing to make people think about a bussing scenario. It's like Elie is saying he has nothing to hide, and that's a town sign for me.
Elie also is in good terms with HD atm, who is my strongest town read so far, cuz he's making everyone talk, and is even correcting stuff. He is letting nothing go without calling it out, which I really like.

That's all I have for now. I know it's not much, but I didn't have much time today, but I'll make up for it tomorrow.

 

[Snowy]

It is. I just phrased it in a joking way. His posts were all about me. That's why I voted him. He didn't make any posts that contributed anything except commenting on me.

Oh. Well, that's fair enough.

I've been doing the same thing yet you seem to not be disturbed by me doing it. Why?

Yeah, but you scare me!

Just kidding. Actually, i hadn't noticed.

Fixed

Big thanks!

The 100?

Yeah, i think it was. I had serious information overload that game, caused by a lot of posts, many of them wall posts.

Just curious, but is that your only reasoning? Elieson voting for Luna?

How many reasons do i need?

First thing I wanna say that no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) is that while Luna's post of finding the double vote on jack suspicious is suspicious itself

Thats actually the reasomn for elieson's case against Luna and my case against Elieson

 

[Almonds]

Sorry for the late reply.

@Alex Kaz; I wouldn't be so sure about referring oneself to potential maf bussing warrants town alignment. Town-like confidence could also mean pro-active mafia.
Luna is somewhat on the fence for me. I understand not wanting someone to die wrongly; but potential bandwagon or not, a few votes stacked on someone does not guarantee a lynch. It's Day 1, a day for poking around. Eventually someone's going to die, but it's only after there's been enough talk. There's no need to be suspicious or worried about some accumulation of votes.

I find Elementar suspicious because of his recent list of reads. He said that the 'town' reads are all helpful collecting information, asking plenty of questions, and active in scumhunting. This isn't necessarily wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that there is some buttering up on trying to look positive in the eyes of the 'active' scumhunters by praising their actions. And by labeling HumanDawn as 'Strong Town', it seems like Elementar doesn't want to get on Human's bad side and perhaps fly under the radar of the most active scumhunter and avoid pressure, not to mention that he said Human helped his opinion on Elieson.

Unvote: jackatlasred
Vote: Elementar

 

[Elementar]

How many reasons do i need?

You have enough. I was just wondering.

I find Elementar suspicious because of his recent list of reads. He said that the 'town' reads are all helpful collecting information, asking plenty of questions, and active in scumhunting. This isn't necessarily wrong, but I'm getting the feeling that there is some buttering up on trying to look positive in the eyes of the 'active' scumhunters by praising their actions. And by labeling HumanDawn as 'Strong Town', it seems like Elementar doesn't want to get on Human's bad side and perhaps fly under the radar of the most active scumhunter and avoid pressure, not to mention that he said Human helped his opinion on Elieson.

Unvote: jackatlasred
Vote: Elementar

Other players have said they have multiple strong town reads, such as Calvin saying that HD, Elie and myself were their strong town reads. But I'm buttering HD because I said one person who I trust and think is strong town? Why just me? I'm giving reasoning for my reads. It's easy to give reads and not provide any information, but I did my best to provide that information and express my take on the game as best as possible. And Human was the only one who defended Elie when I was asking questions. They were the only person I could list for helping me with Elie's read.

What are some of your other reads @Eye Gel?

 

[Almonds]

Other players have said they have multiple strong town reads, such as Calvin saying that HD, Elie and myself were their strong town reads. But I'm buttering HD because I said one person who I trust and think is strong town? Why just me? I'm giving reasoning for my reads. It's easy to give reads and not provide any information, but I did my best to provide that information and express my take on the game as best as possible. And Human was the only one who defended Elie when I was asking questions. They were the only person I could list for helping me with Elie's read.

What are some of your other reads @Eye Gel?

Mentioning three people as their strongest and choosing the one person outright is different. It's hard to believe that there's already that one trustworthy person on Day 1 in contrast to having a general strong vibe over a few people that contributed to scumhunting just as much.

Molten Eevee asked MCH about Sunsette and Calvin's lack of posting at #197, but I wonder if that question was really necessary, or if it was just a question for the sake of questioning. I understand wanting to encourage discussion, but asking opinions about inactivity doesn't seem productive. That, along with the question 'what are your reads on all the players?' he asked to jdthebud at #212. It's not a specific question that would help scumhunting. Not very productive, but Molten Eeveen doesn't look like mafia.

*an error occurred and I couldn't use multi-quotes so I referred to the posts by numbers.

 

[Almonds]

what I mean by 'productive' is getting specific pointers with evidence. Talking about why someone might be inactive is only going to throw people in the loophole of 'they might be lurking, they might be busy, everyone has real life issues, they could fake being busy' and that would be a waste of post. Also, a general question about a general 'reads about everyone' is too broad a topic. The answers may return in a specific point, but there's no knowing what the purpose of the question is. Feels like testing the waters to see if there's potential answers they can agree with and buddy along.

 

[Elementar]

Asking for reads from a player under fire such as jdthebud (who has two votes on them) is helpful, especially in day 1. If jd got lynched, we can get the most from their lynch and see who doesn't look good from their reads. Say, if jd was a mislynch, we can see who voted for them and who they thought were scum as leads because they are the only confirmed townie in the game. So, that question is very helpful, especially on day 1 when we don't have too many other options and a mislynch is more likely.

 

[Almonds]

Asking for reads from a player under fire such as jdthebud (who has two votes on them) is helpful, especially in day 1. If jd got lynched, we can get the most from their lynch and see who doesn't look good from their reads. Say, if jd was a mislynch, we can see who voted for them and who they thought were scum as leads because they are the only confirmed townie in the game. So, that question is very helpful, especially on day 1 when we don't have too many other options and a mislynch is more likely.

That can be done without asking vague, broad questions. The person who has to answer the question on 'what are your reads on everyone?' could feel overwhelemed on having to provide opinions on all 15 players (minus themselves) and thus could either just reply with a few of his selection, or post an answer just as vague and broad like the question. That would not help because either way, the answers do not fulfill the question's intent.

 

[Elementar]

That can be done without asking vague, broad questions. The person who has to answer the question on 'what are your reads on everyone?' could feel overwhelemed on having to provide opinions on all 15 players (minus themselves) and thus could either just reply with a few of his selection, or post an answer just as vague and broad like the question. That would not help because either way, the answers do not fulfill the question's intent.

If people want to truly help the town, they'll provide reads and it will be beneficial in the long run. If they don't have time or feel overwhelmed, that's fine, but the actual intention of asking for reads is pro-town and beneficial. Asking for reads is good, and if it isn't answered correctly, that doesn't change the motives behind asking the question in the first place.

 

[Doctor Floptopus]

Ok, so I don't have time to reread the thread, so you get some gut reads:
Lunaala's actions haven't helped at all, I still lean scum.
Midori seems town. Elementar is trying hard, leaning town. Elieson seems town to me. Eevee seems genuine, and I like Alex's entry. Other than that, I don't have anything strong.
As for the votes on me, I can see the reasoning. I wouldn't be massively opposed to my lynch, since it would save the hosts from finding one sub, but my role is incredibly pro-town and I don't want it lost.

 

[Thanos]

Lunaala's actions haven't helped at all, I still lean scum.

Hmm... I do wonder if this is an OMGUS since I called her my top scrum read earlier on in the day, and the fact that she called me scum right of the bat is a bit scummy, and is still sticking with it, whilst not pointing out anything else is a bit alarming.

 

[HumanDawn]

@Alex Kaz

... You mentioned something about Lunaala you thought was suspicious and wondered if somebody else pointed it out when the discussion about it lasted a 1/3 of the phase?

@Elementar @Eye Gel

I feel like this is a Town-Town dispute... Eye Gel brings up a good point about there potentially being some buttering up to me so I don't look at them more seriously. It has happened years before where I have been tricked and I ended up doing what scum wanted so it wouldn't be anything new. I'm more surprised though because people point out how hard I am to read as either alignment (just ask zexy lmao) so it's weird for me to suddenly have a Town read so early. I don't think Elementar's read list is particularly bad, I'd say it's a bit too early and usually I find it better to post reads during N1 when I have an actual flip to go over, but a reads list so early isn't bad to try to generate discussion.

Anyway I'm still fine with lynching Soulmaster, even if jdthebud listed his first vote as a pressure vote. Doctor Floptopus doesn't sound like a bad lynch either so I may vote them if Soulmaster doesn't get votes.

@Doctor Floptopus

Would you be interested in voting Soulmaster? His case on Elieson sounded pretty half-hearted and non serious to me, and he didn't seem to care about Lunaala that much while Elementar was more serious about what he thought. Basically Soulmaster's vote was just "there" while Elementar's had more nuance to it.

 

[Thanos]

@HumanDawn I think she is going to keep her vote on me, since she is so hell bent on seeing me lynched.

 

[Alex Kaz]

@Alex Kaz; I wouldn't be so sure about referring oneself to potential maf bussing warrants town alignment. Town-like confidence could also mean pro-active mafia.

You have a point there. But warrant is a "strong" word; sign describes my thoughts on Elie better, that's why I chose it.

I have a null read on most players at the moment. Not voting either Elieson or Lunaala. I find the reason for the Lunaala vote weak, even though I'm getting null to slightly scum vibes from her. Not voting Elieson either, because as I said I'm having a slight town read on him, and the reason he was voted is that push for Lunaala, which I don't find too suspicious. It's a respectable way of gathering leads day 1.

Vote: returnofmastercrazyhand

He's posted a lot, but nothing contributing. I know I'm not one to speak, but I've seen nothing helpful from him
Not a strong read, but more of a throwaway vote just because I don't have anything better to offer.

 

[HumanDawn]

@Midorikawa

I asked if you would still stick to your jdthebud vote and you quoted the question but didn't answer it, instead just answering me correcting you about being wrong about who jdthebud Townread.

Vote: returnofmastercrazyhand

He's posted a lot, but nothing contributing. I know I'm not one to speak, but I've seen nothing helpful from him
Not a strong read, but more of a throwaway vote just because I don't have anything better to offer.

@Alex Kaz

... You mentioned something about Lunaala you thought was suspicious and wondered if somebody else pointed it out when the discussion about it lasted a 1/3 of the phase?

Well, for what it's worth, his Doctor Floptopus vote broke a 4-way tie so it hasn't just been him saying he doesn't know how to contribute because of his autism. Currently I think there's like, 4 players with 2 votes each and Doctor Floptopus still has 3. The phase is almost ending and quite a lot of time has passed since the tie was broken and nobody has tried vote anyway with two votes, so it makes me wary because I expect scum to try to save Doctor Floptopus. There's the possibility they're inactive or aren't confident enough though, hmm.

ehh

UNVOTE: Soulmaster
VOTE: Doctor Floptopus

Yeah I'm gonna agree with Sunsette on this. I also don't want to end up with a No Lynch in case of some Double Voter/Secret Voter shenanigans. Phase will end in 20 minutes too so there isn't much time either.