US/UM Trailers and News Discussion

[dvor]

Really happy that we can catch a zorua! 100% will be on my team.
it also looks like you can get really early in the game (when you going to trainer school after getting rotomdex map)

 

[Bolt Strike]

I mean, it's true that the game lets you face the Olivine and Fuschia gyms in the order you like, but you're still actively driven to one of the options by the game, the game has an intended order, just because they didn't enforce it, I wouldn't call it non-linear.
That's just my opinion however.

Well, it was a subtle enough difference for me to notice, and 5th-7th definitely feels like a regression in terms of region design. Really yes though, they should do better than even 1st-4th in future generations.

Anyway, I wasn't expecting USUM to do that specifically, but that's more the scale of change I'm expecting from this series nowadays. Enough recycling basically the same game with the same formula over and over and over again, let's see games with meaningful improvements from game to game that make each one worth $40 (or $60 once it makes the jump to the Switch).

 

[DoctorWhy]

Also, oh look, let's add Pokemon who actually have business in a tropical region in a tropical region.

And I've got high hopes for an Alolan Oddish family.

 

[Kallyle]

I'd be fine with getting a finished product for gen7 when gen6 remained forever shafted.

I'm in the opposite camp. I'd rather USUM be the regular SM while Kalos has a Z-like game.

 

[Sakuraa]

It looks like we can wear a Team Skull hat now

 

[zoroarctic]

I just watched the trailer. That was pretty cool.

 

[~ Blazing White Yang]

Some of the new stuff does look pretty cool, but then I see those SM cutscenes and it takes the wind out of my sails a bit...I don't think I could bring myself to sit through this game's story again...Would've been down for a sequel.

 

[Bolt Strike]

I'm in the opposite camp. I'd rather USUM be the regular SM while Kalos has a Z-like game.

This. I never really had much problem with SM, there's a few things that could be expanded on, but nothing that I felt demanded a second game, so I could've lived without any kind of followup. It's really no less complete than any other 3DS game. XY on the other hand, feels half-finished and nearly everything about the game either wasn't properly explained or could've used some sort of expansion. Even by 3DS standards it just felt like there should've been more there and that it was leading up to something more but it just wasn't. I would've much rather have it the other way around with XY getting a third version that expanded on some of the things that needed expanding and SM being a standalone experience.

 

[Esserise]

I'd rather they milk SM's fresh ideas a second time than see them resort to the creative dead-end that is Z (seriously, what an apropos name).

Besides, I think SM are the ones that need it more. I liked SM a lot and I'm not one to say I regret buying them or that they should have had USUM's features from the start or anything like that, but while they have personality and visual splash in spades, they're lacking in substance. Just look at all those barren areas like Ultra Space or the Lake of the Sunne/Moone or the Hano Grand Resort or the Tide Song Hotel or Mount Lanakila or Wela Volcano Park, or Paniola Town (literally a house and a Pokémon Center) or Tapu Village (loltad), or those clunky step-back mechanics like Festival Plaza and Trainer customization or wait what's an "O-Power"? The Regional Dex is much, much, much, much, much more in need of a boost than Kalos's. Not to mention that XY don't even come close to doing something like skipping over an entire Gym and replacing it with literally walking in a straight line.

I think XY are better overall games than SM, whereas SM have more fresh ideas that are more deserving of further exporation. It is fairly irritating that they don't seem to be modifying the story of SM very much given that that's one area in which SM definitely didn't need a lot of help, while XY certainly could have used some (even though really, it feels like XY are specifically trying to tell a looser, more casual story - I don't think that was quite the right call, but I do think that the call was deliberate), but the story is the least-important part of the games anyway.

Really, the only important thing that XY are missing is some post-game content, but people have complained about SM's post-game just as much (though I myself think they're okay on that front).

 

[godiego]

Not to mention that XY don't even come close to doing something like skipping over an entire Gym and replacing it with literally walking in a straight line.

yeah but they quietly mention a secret place called Southern Kalos and we never get to go so i mean talk about incomplete

XY on the other hand, feels half-finished and nearly everything about the game either wasn't properly explained or could've used some sort of expansion.

okay but what in XY-- that isn't par for the course in Pokemon-- was really left so unexplained that it'd need Z?

 

[Bolt Strike]

Besides, I think SM are the ones that need it more. I liked SM a lot and I'm not one to say I regret buying them or that they should have had USUM's features from the start or anything like that, but while they have personality and visual splash in spades, they're lacking in substance. Just look at all those barren areas like Ultra Space or the Lake of the Sunne/Moone or the Hano Grand Resort or the Tide Song Hotel or Mount Lanakila or Wela Volcano Park, or Paniola Town (literally a house and a Pokémon Center) or Tapu Village (loltad)

This isn't unique to SM, XY had a lot of the same problems. XY had the locked doors in the Power Plant, the train station in Couriway, Kiloude. Oh, and they hint at an entire freaking subregion that isn't in the game. The latter especially is

The Regional Dex is much, much, much, much, much more in need of a boost than Kalos's.

Tremendous exaggeration here, this isn't like the older games where you had only 2 or 3 families of Dragons or Ghosts, or type specialists having to use duplicate lines or unrelated types. There's a surplus of Kanto Pokemon and a deficit of new Pokemon, but Kalos had that same problem. Alola's problem is distribution, not quantity. You have the same Com Mons spammed endlessly while you have some Pokemon which are extremely rare in some obscure encounter mechanic like SOS Battles. An expansion isn't really needed for USUM in the same way that it was for Platinum or BW2, or the way people wanted one for ORAS or potential Kanto sequels.

kay but what in XY-- that isn't par for the course in Pokemon-- was really left so unexplained that it'd need Z?

The mascots. Xerneas and Yveltal are just dropped into the game with no explanation, no real lore, they're just hanging around in Team Flare HQ. Zygarde is hinted at having a connection with Xerneas and Yveltal but it's never elaborated on. None of the three have any real connection to the Kalos region or any kind of focus that a mascot usually gets.

 

[Esserise]

This isn't unique to SM, XY had a lot of the same problems. XY had the locked doors in the Power Plant, the train station in Couriway, Kiloude. Oh, and they hint at an entire freaking subregion that isn't in the game. The latter especially is

It isn't unique to SM, but SM is a lot worse about it. XY's towns are at least comparable in content to the towns in all the other games. Whereas Hau'oli, the big metropolis, has as many enterable buildings as Cyllage City (eleven, and that's being generous to Hau'oli by counting the Gracidea boutique as a separate "building"), which is one of Kalos's bigger towns, sure, but is a small apartment building compared to Lumiose City.

Po Town has a Pokémon Center and the Shady Chateau. Tapu Village as a Pokémon Center and nothing else. Malie City, their other big one, has eight buildings (counting the Pokémon Center and the Ferry) and the garden, which has an unenterable for-show tower, and then there are four more unenterable for-show buildings and an unenterable for-show recycling plant. Seafolk Village is okay, but relies more on its unique character. Paniola is nothing, as I mentioned. Royal Avenue is just a Center, a Malasada shop, the Megamart, and the BR Dome.

Alola has what, six cities (I'd say Iki, Heahea, Hau'oli, Konikoni, Malie, and Seafolk) that meet the average for mid-sized Pokémon cities. Kalos has Santalune, Cyllage, Coumarine, Laverre, Anistar, Snowbelle, and Kiloude for average-size towns. The rest of Alola's "cities" are tiny - Paniola, Po, Tapu, Royal (and that is the remainder of its cities) - whereas Kalos has plenty of counterpunches left in that department too, with Vaniville, Aquacorde, Ambrette, Geosenge (How does fucking Geosenge manage to put anything to shame? Tapu Village, that's how.), Shalour, Dendemille, and Couriway. Then, Kalos has Lumiose sitting on top of the throne. For every Tide Song Hotel, Kalos has a Parfum Palace. For every Hano Grand Resort, Kalos has a Hotel Richissime. For every Kala'e Bay, Kalos has an Azure one. Ten Carat Hill? Meet Frost Cavern. Or any of Kalos's caves, because Kalos has several dungeons that are actually worth something of a damn. Throw in the Lost Hotel just because, and Alola can't respond. Honestly, Kalos doesn't even need four other power plants. The one we visit already outclasses the Geothermal Power Lobby. Four more would just be cruel.

Yeah point to the train station in Couriway all you want, but it's not as if that's all there is in Couriway. It has a hotel, two houses, and even a waterfall you can backtrack to. This is more than SM can muster for three separate towns, and Couriway is only meant to be a brief stop-off with some nice scenery between two larger routes anyway. Because Kalos has done so much by that point already that it can get away with that. (And would a functional train station even be something to improve Couriway, given that it would logically be one room used to warp to some other town?)

And "Southern Kalos" is just a bad joke. And obscure map reference for cultural flavor and some event-locked text for cultural flavor do not a whole subregion make.

Are you going to be this incensed when they don't add a desert island to Johto when we revisit it in BeatingHeartGold and BurningSoulSilver? Some Volcanion text mentioned that as well and Johto's pretty lacking in desert areas...

Tremendous exaggeration here, this isn't like the older games where you had only 2 or 3 families of Dragons or Ghosts, or type specialists having to use duplicate lines or unrelated types. There's a surplus of Kanto Pokemon and a deficit of new Pokemon, but Kalos had that same problem. Alola's problem is distribution, not quantity. You have the same Com Mons spammed endlessly while you have some Pokemon which are extremely rare in some obscure encounter mechanic like SOS Battles.

There's a surplus of Kanto Pokémon and a defecit of everything else in Alola. That's not the problem Kalos had, if what Kalos had was even a problem. It found room for a good range of Pokémon from every region, because the goal was very much to offer a huge amount of options. Just look at Serebii's list of unobtainable Pokémon for XY. Seriously, it cleaned house with the entire roster. Alola is just being a Gen 1 shill for no particular reason, and repeating a worrying amount of the same encounter tables for every island, which is the exact opposite of what they should be doing. Kalos offered different Pokémon in practically every new area you went to. One minute you're on the Menhir Trail with stuff like Golett, Hawlucha, Sigilyph, Eevee, and Houndour/Electrike. Next you're on Miroir Way with Staravia, the Nidos, Hariyama, Stunky, Throh/Sawk, and Dedenne. Then you're in Reflection Cave with Mr. Mime, Solosis, Carbink, Sableye, Roggenrola, and Wobbuffet. Not far after that is Mareep, Exeggcute, Tauros, Miltank, Slowpoke, and Pinsir/Heracross. All in rapid succession. And those aren't even the full lists for those areas. There is virtually no overlap in offerings from Central, Coastal, and Mountain Kalos like there is for the four Alolan islands.

The mascots. Xerneas and Yveltal are just dropped into the game with no explanation, no real lore, they're just hanging around in Team Flare HQ. Zygarde is hinted at having a connection with Xerneas and Yveltal but it's never elaborated on. None of the three have any real connection to the Kalos region or any kind of focus that a mascot usually gets.

Oh please. Solgaleo and Lunala get as much lore - that is, pretty much a single concentrated infodump and some other vague comments on the side - as Xerneas and Yveltal, and the lore for the SM duo isn't even spoken totally coherently. They just have a leg up by way of also being Cosmog.

And while I think they could have been tied into the Team Flare stuff a little more closely, it's not as if it's not foreshadowed. Lysandre talks about them specifically in the context of the games' themes in his café when we first go there, and in Anistar, the lady in Mr. Loredump's house says that Team Flare came by a while ago asking about the Legendary Pokémon. Gee, I wonder why.

They also happen to be the entire reason why Mega Evolution exists in the region, being the element that unifies the other two big mythic features of Kalos (the war/ultimate weapon, and Mega Evolution). No connection to Kalos? They may not have created it or anything (and frankly, I'm glad for that; the "creator/founder/progenitor/whatever of the region" trope was getting rusty), but because they're what AZ fueled the weapon with, Mega Evolution became a thing in Kalos, and they're what Lysandre needs in order to use the weapon once again.

On the whole, that's not really that much less than what we get in terms of historical lore for Solgaleo/Lunala (emerged from a wormhole one day and had interdimensional sex in front of the king, and left the baby with the Tapu) or even Ho-Oh and Lugia (resurrected some dogs, and broke an island respectively). Or even Groudon and Kyogre in the original Hoenn games, for that matter (they fought, then someone brought out the Orbs and/or Rayquaza told them to stop and they did).

Zygarde's connection to Xerneas and Yveltal doesn't really need to be elaborated on because it's one of the aforementioned creative dead-ends. It is so obvious that we didn't even need them to tell us. Zygarde keeps the two of them from running unchecked, hence Aura Break. While I don't particularly like what they're doing with Necrozma, its nature and its relationship to the Cosmog line at least isn't immediately clear. (Is it a predator? A mutated Cosmog itself? Is it antagonistic or just instinctive, or could it be benevolent somehow? Unlike with Zygarde, the Dex isn't already spelling it out for us.)

 

[Harryghost]

Yeah, I also kinda feel that the number of cities and towns in Alola is a little too less. Sure, it may have a number of other attractions, but what is a region without grand cities to boast off.

 

[Desdar300]

Guys let's stay on track. Nobody wants to go through this song and dance again .

 

[SirOni]

I'm not too bothered by the number of cities in Alola. If I remember correctly it was supposed to have more of a focus on nature and environments. Also with trials instead of gyms there's no real need to have as many cities as other regions.

 

[Niyuura]

I think i'm gonna be very upset if the malie garden tower is a giant inaccessible decoration in USUM too...like..just..how lazy were you to do that gf????????????????????????????? How much more potential does Alola have if they actually make all the inaccessible places/areas accessible? :/ Golf course, volcano, 2 grand hotels with only one floor accessible, power plant, lighthouse, tower >_< all these potential cool places, USUM, please do them justice. Having less towns in favor of more diverse areas only works if your areas make up for it...and when you shaft half of what you have on the map, it's just sad.

 

[godiego]

The mascots. Xerneas and Yveltal are just dropped into the game with no explanation, no real lore, they're just hanging around in Team Flare HQ. Zygarde is hinted at having a connection with Xerneas and Yveltal but it's never elaborated on. None of the three have any real connection to the Kalos region or any kind of focus that a mascot usually gets.

while i agree that Xerneas and Yveltal don't have a huge amount of lore or focus, i also think you're overstating the amount of lore and focus that other legendaries have had. Lugia and Ho-Oh play no role in the originals (and then are shoehorned into the remakes), Groudon/Kyogre are simply name-dropped a lot till you see them, and Galactic summoning Palkia/Dialga is simply the culmination of their storyline.

(also Southern Kalos cannot exist anyways......move on m8)

I'm not too bothered by the number of cities in Alola. If I remember correctly it was supposed to have more of a focus on nature and environments. Also with trials instead of gyms there's no real need to have as many cities as other regions.

i'm not bothered by the number of cities-- it was a nice change of pace to not have a region that boils down to city-route-city-route-- but what does bother me is that despite having such few cities, all of them feel so hollow. i mean, Hau'Oli is supposed to be the metropolis of Alola and yet aside from its sheer physical size, there's practically nothing there! and what little there is (ie., the mall) is simply grafted from pre-existing functions (Gracidea playing the role of the upscale Boutique Couture, the Battle Buffet being an import of Kalos's restaurants). hell, a sort of first in Pokemon, a city hall, goes completely unused despite its usage in the demo. and then this is all just compounded by the fact that not only are the cities pretty empty, but there's just a ton of other things are empty.

so really, here's to hoping that USUM gives Alola a bone with respect to its lack of depth.

 

[Bolt Strike]

It isn't unique to SM, but SM is a lot worse about it. XY's towns are at least comparable in content to the towns in all the other games. Whereas Hau'oli, the big metropolis, has as many enterable buildings as Cyllage City (eleven, and that's being generous to Hau'oli by counting the Gracidea boutique as a separate "building"), which is one of Kalos's bigger towns, sure, but is a small apartment building compared to Lumiose City.

Po Town has a Pokémon Center and the Shady Chateau. Tapu Village as a Pokémon Center and nothing else. Malie City, their other big one, has eight buildings (counting the Pokémon Center and the Ferry) and the garden, which has an unenterable for-show tower, and then there are four more unenterable for-show buildings and an unenterable for-show recycling plant. Seafolk Village is okay, but relies more on its unique character. Paniola is nothing, as I mentioned. Royal Avenue is just a Center, a Malasada shop, the Megamart, and the BR Dome.

A lot of that is just fluff, there really isn't a lot of value in exploring buildings unless they're bigger and complex. You go in, talk to some people, and leave. Not exactly that exciting.

Alola has what, six cities (I'd say Iki, Heahea, Hau'oli, Konikoni, Malie, and Seafolk) that meet the average for mid-sized Pokémon cities. Kalos has Santalune, Cyllage, Coumarine, Laverre, Anistar, Snowbelle, and Kiloude for average-size towns. The rest of Alola's "cities" are tiny - Paniola, Po, Tapu, Royal (and that is the remainder of its cities) - whereas Kalos has plenty of counterpunches left in that department too, with Vaniville, Aquacorde, Ambrette, Geosenge (How does fucking Geosenge manage to put anything to shame? Tapu Village, that's how.), Shalour, Dendemille, and Couriway. Then, Kalos has Lumiose sitting on top of the throne. For every Tide Song Hotel, Kalos has a Parfum Palace. For every Hano Grand Resort, Kalos has a Hotel Richissime. For every Kala'e Bay, Kalos has an Azure one. Ten Carat Hill? Meet Frost Cavern. Or any of Kalos's caves, because Kalos has several dungeons that are actually worth something of a damn. Throw in the Lost Hotel just because, and Alola can't respond. Honestly, Kalos doesn't even need four other power plants. The one we visit already outclasses the Geothermal Power Lobby. Four more would just be cruel.

Like SirOni said, Alola is meant to be more rural, the lack of cities isn't something to get upset about.

And "Southern Kalos" is just a bad joke. And obscure map reference for cultural flavor and some event-locked text for cultural flavor do not a whole subregion make.

Why go through the trouble to give a nonexistent area some culture if they're not going to bother including it. At least Alola isn't referencing a 5th island that doesn't exist.

Are you going to be this incensed when they don't add a desert island to Johto when we revisit it in BeatingHeartGold and BurningSoulSilver? Some Volcanion text mentioned that as well and Johto's pretty lacking in desert areas...

Not really, because one island is not anywhere near as glaring an omission as an entire subregion.

It found room for a good range of Pokémon from every region, because the goal was very much to offer a huge amount of options. Just look at Serebii's list of unobtainable Pokémon for XY. Seriously, it cleaned house with the entire roster.

Kalos also had a large number of Pokemon obtainable in the Friend Safari post game. SM had almost nothing that wasn't a regional dex Pokemon, you had a couple dozen Pokemon obtainable through Island Scan and that's it.

Alola is just being a Gen 1 shill for no particular reason, and repeating a worrying amount of the same encounter tables for every island, which is the exact opposite of what they should be doing. Kalos offered different Pokémon in practically every new area you went to. One minute you're on the Menhir Trail with stuff like Golett, Hawlucha, Sigilyph, Eevee, and Houndour/Electrike. Next you're on Miroir Way with Staravia, the Nidos, Hariyama, Stunky, Throh/Sawk, and Dedenne. Then you're in Reflection Cave with Mr. Mime, Solosis, Carbink, Sableye, Roggenrola, and Wobbuffet. Not far after that is Mareep, Exeggcute, Tauros, Miltank, Slowpoke, and Pinsir/Heracross. All in rapid succession. And those aren't even the full lists for those areas. There is virtually no overlap in offerings from Central, Coastal, and Mountain Kalos like there is for the four Alolan islands.

This is distribution. Alola offered roughly as many throughout the game, but most of them are hidden and you're only really seeing the same Pokemon over and over.

Anyway, how is this is a big deal? It makes some of the routes a bit boring, but in general you have enough choices to form a relatively competent team, so to say that Alola desperately needs a dex expansion is a tremendous exaggeration. It's more like it's nice to have one but doesn't exactly kill Alola for not having one. You want to talk regions that desperately need dex expansions look at regions like Kanto, Johto, or Hoenn. Hell even Sinnoh is a bit more lacking than Alola and there was a lot of praise for Platinum's dex expansion.

Oh please. Solgaleo and Lunala get as much lore - that is, pretty much a single concentrated infodump and some other vague comments on the side - as Xerneas and Yveltal, and the lore for the SM duo isn't even spoken totally coherently. They just have a leg up by way of also being Cosmog.

And while I think they could have been tied into the Team Flare stuff a little more closely, it's not as if it's not foreshadowed. Lysandre talks about them specifically in the context of the games' themes in his café when we first go there, and in Anistar, the lady in Mr. Loredump's house says that Team Flare came by a while ago asking about the Legendary Pokémon. Gee, I wonder why.

They also happen to be the entire reason why Mega Evolution exists in the region, being the element that unifies the other two big mythic features of Kalos (the war/ultimate weapon, and Mega Evolution). No connection to Kalos? They may not have created it or anything (and frankly, I'm glad for that; the "creator/founder/progenitor/whatever of the region" trope was getting rusty), but because they're what AZ fueled the weapon with, Mega Evolution became a thing in Kalos, and they're what Lysandre needs in order to use the weapon once again.

Them showing up as Cosmog is still a much bigger role than Xerneas and Yveltal ever got, plus it's more in line with their lore than Xerneas and Yveltal.

Additionally, it's not just about lore dumping. Lore dumping isn't really a great method of story telling for a video game, it doesn't really provide the kind of interaction that defines a video game. A good storyline needs to show the legendaries' role. You see Groudon/Kyogre/Rayquaza's effects on the weather in the storyline, you see Dialga/Palkia/Giratina's control over space, time, and dimensions, you see how Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem's connection to the conflict of philosophy in BW, and you see Solgaleo/Lunala/Necrozma's connection to Ultra Space. But you don't really see how Xerneas/Yveltal/Zygarde are connected to the Ultimate Weapon or Mega Evolution or its effect on nature or anything. They're just there and don't really do anything. The only mascots that really compare are Lugia/Ho-oh, but even then you still see the after effects of their lore in the game with Burned Tower. They also have a bit of an excuse since GSC or even HGSS weren't really in an era where story got a heavy focus (HGSS could've been a bit better, but they weren't far below average for their time). XY were, they look much worse sandwiched between BW and SM which were both storyline heavy.

 

[Esserise]

Yeah... no. I'm tired of doing this.

i'm not bothered by the number of cities-- it was a nice change of pace to not have a region that boils down to city-route-city-route-- but what does bother me is that despite having such few cities, all of them feel so hollow. i mean, Hau'Oli is supposed to be the metropolis of Alola and yet aside from its sheer physical size, there's practically nothing there! and what little there is (ie., the mall) is simply grafted from pre-existing functions (Gracidea playing the role of the upscale Boutique Couture, the Battle Buffet being an import of Kalos's restaurants). hell, a sort of first in Pokemon, a city hall, goes completely unused despite its usage in the demo. and then this is all just compounded by the fact that not only are the cities pretty empty, but there's just a ton of other things are empty.

Right, this is what I was getting at. Dialing up the natural/rural elements is a fine idea, but so many areas in the game lack depth regardless of whether they're a city/town or a natural area, and it is only made up for with good visual quality (but honestly, the Gen 6 games looked pretty good too, they were just on a less-flattering scale).

 

[Bolt Strike]

Right, this is what I was getting at. Dialing up the natural/rural elements is a fine idea, but so many areas in the game lack depth regardless of whether they're a city/town or a natural area, and it is only made up for with good visual quality (but honestly, the Gen 6 games looked pretty good too, they were just on a less-flattering scale).

I mean, this has been the 3D games in a nutshell. They're flashy, but they lack depth. And I certainly wouldn't expect that to change in an era where Game Freak is constantly pointing to the mobile market and saying "mobile's successful without depth so we shouldn't need it either".