Mafia ZD X BMG 2019 Link’s Awakening Hydra Mafia Crossover Game Thread

[Paul and the band]

By (not so) popular demand, the return of the rainbow read list, based on interactions with ZMS:

Aflame
Mafia Nursing Home
Restless_Ridge
Lone_Wolf
dum dum idiots
Hydreigon and Shelgon GX
Chillian
thesunspear
Tommy and Hal

 

[Paul and the band]

Vote: Tommy and Hal

 

[Mafia Nursing Home]

Oof, dum dum idiots and leetic and the band are making some good points about thesunspear, combined with the fact that I really don't agree with that vote on dum dum idiots. I don't know meta for either player in that hydra and I know that was part of the scum read on them (I think?), but even when I don't agree with all their posts, they feel reasonable and I can see where they're coming from. A lot of thesunspear's posts this phase haven't really been super relevant aside from like #976, aside from the odd pointing out of the "cop check," which I had just read as LatB seeing Lone Wolf as most likely town due to the EoD posts they made, which I was thinking too.

@thesunspear @Mafia Nursing Home @Restless_Ridge before I address anything can you 3 go iso aflame for me. I did myself overnight, and it seemed to me that although they pushed several slots, they seemed to not push where they voted ended up that hard. I think this is interesting because despite being early on the wagon, they seemed to be more interested in other slots earlier. I'm curious as to why they chose to stay on this one, good chance it was a hard bus imo, want thoughts.

I looked back through Aflame's posts, and the only things that seem a bit bad are some of the early posts, where I can see your point about not pushing the reads hard and needing prompting. If I'm reading correctly, those posts were from Kokiron, while the late D1 ones were from Officer Snake, with the latter coming across very town to me. Obviously there could be a hard bussing situation, but there seems to be a logical progression at least with post #618 and the next two that follow feeling natural. The two heads disagreed and had to rediscuss things, and I think it gives Aflame some townie points for deciding that the S&N implosion is likely a town player melting down, especially when that was absolutely a viable wagon to try to push if scum wanted to. Combined with LatB's handy post of interactions between Zinn and Aflame, I think Aflame looks pretty town at this point despite a shaky start at the very early part of the game.

 

[Mafia Nursing Home]

Only two posts that even mention ZMS. Neither are particularly towny.

This seems really strange when ZMS was a huge topic as one of the two slots in contention for a lynch and the majority of T&H's posts were from late in the phase. Like it wasn't even a consideration to vote ZMS? And I don't get the post about "maybe just neither claim tbh," what would have been the harm in getting more information while trying to make final decisions on who to lynch when there was still one open "you can roleclaim once per phase" slot available? It might have been to not risk S&N claiming something that would've showed they were town, or ZMS having to fumble for a fakeclaim.

 

[Greymon]

This is all I need. You can't contest my arguments, you agree with it. Because you can't fault it you are forced to attempt to discredit it by shouting omgus etc. If you can't think of a reasonible defence and you have to agree with my points, I have no real reason not to lynch you imo.

…Wha? Where in that post did they say anything implying that they agree with you?

The look back I said I was gonna do last night:

Aflame had a poor opinion of ZMS early on, and was the one to actually start the wagon. This is something that I can’t really see scum doing when both S&N and myself were not in high public opinion at that point, either one of us could’ve been a viable mislynch, but they went for the Godfather/Rolecop. Especially given Aflame’s opposition to the idea of bussing your scumbuds, I’m seeing them as Town from this flip.
(As a side note: the dum dum idiots are looking better for a similar reason. There was an easy mislynch to push that no-one would call them out for voting on. If they wanted to sheep onto an easy wagon, that’s where you go, not the similarly easy but worse for you scum wagon.)

As for Tommy & Hal, I did notice that lack of an opinion on ZMS. They say that they think S&N is better than ZMS, but they never actually say what their opinion on ZMS was. It’s possible that this was an attempt to distance themselves from ZMS to prevent people from drawing associations between the two.

Vote: Tommy & Hal

You're also making a good point on sunspear there. It also looks like they've partaken in a certain amount of question dodging as well. I think I'm starting to see what my other head didn't like about them.

 

[dum dum idiots]

Hydreigon & Shelgon GX: They brought up my early accusation on ZMS as a reason to potentially town read us. If they were Mafia I feel like they wouldn't have gone through that much trouble just to "clear" us. Especially considering our rather low activity, we could have probably been rather easy targets, but instead they went out of their way to bring back the post where I started suspecting ZMS. Leaning Town.

Lone Wolf: In all likeliness considering the size of this game there should be two Mafia accounts still living. Assuming one of them bussed their Godfather in hopes of earning some Town cred my guess is it would have been these guys. A late vote like that is exactly what a Mafioso would do upon realising that there's no hope of saving his boss. Of course I'm not saying that has to be the case, but I think it's a decent possibility. Leaning Scum.

leetic and the band: I like what they're doing right now with analysing ZMS's interactions with all of the various players. But on the other hand they were also on the S&N wagon, which in my opinion is somewhat scummy in and of itself. Of course it's not condemning in any way, but it also doesn't make them lean Town for me. They're probably somewhere in the middle.

i disagree with some of my other head's reads. lone wolf's vote was vital to lynching zms, i think that looks great for them. it would have been easy to sit back and not vote, or leave their vote wherever else.
H&S i can't remember why but i agreed with one of their posts today and it made me uncomfy. i remember thinking they were a lil scummy. i'll do research on that tonight.
i'm loving this analysis leetic and the band is doing and i don't remember them doing anything particularly sketchy yesterday and i think they look town.
@ my partner cmon guy a healthy relationship involves communication. i love u but love isn't enough!!!!!

this feels over-explain-y which I tend to associate with mafia

bad logic tbh

vote: dum dum idiots
dabs

if you dab you go to hell before you die. ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[thesunspear]

I get that people don't know our meta (though I guess I'm a little surprised that people aren't too familiar with Moe, I feel like he's played everywhere before), but like

I would absolutely be kicking and screaming if a partner of mine was getting lynched. I would be defending them very hard, and I would do a lot to try and swing the wagon off of them. I know that this might not mean very much to some people, but it is the truth.

 

[thesunspear]

if you dab you go to hell before you die. ¯\(ツ)/¯

still kickin' babe

 

[dum dum idiots]

While it made S&N lean Town in this head's eyes, I will admit I wasn't 100% certain.

sorry if you already answered this but i couldn't see it. why was your vote left on sunspear? if i r correctly you were around by EOD, why did you leave your vote on a wagon that surely wasn't going anywhere?
either way i don't really like your reasoning for voting sunspear. day 1 kneejerk reads are what makes a lynch. it's not like you can determine anything from flips or anything.

same with @Restless_Ridge kinda.

being on lone_wolf for me is pointless

so you acknowledged it and then didn't do anything about it? bit weird innit
did you not have an opinion either way? (sorry if you did and i just didn't notice. i do not want to sift through ~200 posts :^) )

DL's in 1 hour, yes?
im not gonna bother letting this go to a coinflip

what does this mean? votes weren't tied or anything.

 

[dum dum idiots]

"hydregon and shelgon gee eks
howmuchlonger canimakethis name 42069

this is the slot that kept not getting jokes i think"
^from my notes in notepad.

went through some of their posts and a lot of it was beginning of day 1 shenanigans and tunnelling on sunspear. i really didn't see many opinions on anybody else. but i did like the big asspost so i'm thinking only one head was active yesterday lol and the larg post was from the other head.

I understand that pressure votes are a thing. Sometimes people may prefer to ask questions without laying down a vote right away. But I can understand your perspective.


What kind of non-answer about your supposed Town reads is this? Smells like avoidance to me. And I still don’t like your insistence that Chillian is instantly Town that you repeated earlier on. I’m growing a bit suspicious of you.
Unvote: leetic and the band
Vote: thesunspear

correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure the chillian bit was a joke? but you never took the vote off of sunspear. i think it's pretty suspicious that you left your vote here, on a wagon clearly no one was going to join, and didn't really take a stance on the two most popular wagons who have both now flipped.

I honestly already had a feeling S&N was Town. Since early Day 1, to be more precise. However, I'm not saying why until Endgame.

is it because u are scum and they were not in ur scum team???????

 

[Paul and the band]

I get that people don't know our meta (though I guess I'm a little surprised that people aren't too familiar with Moe, I feel like he's played everywhere before), but like

I would absolutely be kicking and screaming if a partner of mine was getting lynched. I would be defending them very hard, and I would do a lot to try and swing the wagon off of them. I know that this might not mean very much to some people, but it is the truth.

hey leetic, i think this is true

 

[Paul and the band]

zms could have easily not died, especially if there were a strong town voice advocating for their survival is what i'm trying to get at

 

[Aflame]

The interactions of Zinn Mask Salesman and Lone_Wolf

Decides to throw some shade on Lone Wolf to try and distract from his building wagon.

Agrees with some of Zinn's frustrations...

By the point of his reads post, his opinion had started to turn against ZMS.

Acts a little indecisive regarding ZMS at first.

Although the other stuff doesn't look the greatest, giving up the godfather for an easy mislynch would just be a bad scum move, and makes them look better.

Conclusion: While they may be worth looking into in F3, for now they're fine.

Yes you are right. I’ve been thinking about this too. I did not immediately townread them after last night, because it would also be a perfect bus move. Perhaps they thought ZMS was unsavable so tried to at least get some town credit for it.
However, I agree with you here. Giving up the freaking godfather+role blocker on day 1 just doesn’t seem worth it. Lynching S&N would’ve been easier. At night ZMS would be safe because, heck they are the godfather. If someone would attempt to investigate them at night it would also (I assume) show a town result, so that would only be a bonus. Then, today there would be a bunch of others you could throw in front of the bus to save ZMS (assuming those aren’t scum), like DDI or T&H. With 3 deaths most day/night cycles, we would reach lylo quickly.
So, I also give LW the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think he tried to bus ZMS.

Hydreigon & Shelgon GX: They brought up my early accusation on ZMS as a reason to potentially town read us. If they were Mafia I feel like they wouldn't have gone through that much trouble just to "clear" us. Especially considering our rather low activity, we could have probably been rather easy targets, but instead they went out of their way to bring back the post where I started suspecting ZMS. Leaning Town.

Interesting argument. You have a good point here, though. Because, in all honesty, if I were mafia and thus knew that you would be a townie, I would definitely be going for you today. You guys would be a perfect miss lynch. Unless you and H&S would be in the same team, why give you guys thumbs up?
You wouldn’t even need to directly hunt after you guys to start a wagon, simply listing you as part of the (bigger) list of scumreads is enough. Let someone else do the fighting.

 

[funnier6]

Vote Count

Aflame- 1 (T&H)
dum dum idiots- 1 (sunspear)
Tommy and Hal- 4 (MNH, H&S, LatB, LW)

With ten alive it takes six to majority. Otherwise day will end at maybe 9 am on Friday the 26th

 

[Mellow Ezlo]

Vote Count

thesunspear- 1 (H&S)
Aflame- 1 (T&H)
dum dum idiots- 1 (sunspear)
Tommy and Hal- 4 (MNH, H&S, LatB, LW)

With ten alive it takes six to majority. Otherwise day will end at maybe 9 am on Friday the 26th

ftfy

 

[dum dum idiots]

dum dum idiots: They are just dumb idiots who can't even smell dumb.

i was going to acknowledge this earlier but i fucking forgot and i saw it again and laughed really hard. i smell dummy sicc

While it made S&N lean Town in this head's eyes, I will admit I wasn't 100% certain.

i meant to address this earlier but i am a large idiot and said something else when i quoted this post of yours earlier. i couldn't find the context for this? what made S&N lean town? did you mean the wagon on them made them look town to you?

 

[Aflame]

Vote Count

Aflame- 1 (T&H)
dum dum idiots- 1 (sunspear)
Tommy and Hal- 4 (MNH, H&S, LatB, LW)

With ten alive it takes six to majority. Otherwise day will end at maybe 9 am on Friday the 26th

Let’s not add votes to T&H for now. Otherwise we risk hammering already a bit early... would be a waste of our 3 days : )

 

[Greymon]

Seems to have TMI regarding S&N, and has yet to respond to my allegation

Ironic, you haven't responded to my request to detail the reads list you gave.

apparently my vote on lone wolf didnt count?

unvote
Vote: Lone_Wolf

Apparently so, maybe because you and @Tommy and Hal haven't explained your vote. I know it's from the previous day but that would not be an excuse.

@Lone_Wolf @Bok's Lovechild this question may be pointless outside of site culture and i cant remember if there are any other offenders but you guys seem to be wary about reading people with "fluff" posts. is "fluff" inherently scummy to you? because it feels like there's some hedginess with that pretense that i've seen from both of you

Personally, it doesn't contribute to the game, sure early on its fine but later on its just more noticeable and makes them seem like they are participating while they aren't. A funny comment to something is fine but also add something of value while you're at it.

i actually think lack of cohesion indicates individual, freeflowing thought

Would you say that is indicative for their alignment?

Haven't completely caught up yet, will get to the rest later.

 

[dum dum idiots]

Chillian: I'll probably need to go back and reread their posts again soon but spontaneously not a whole lot comes to mind regarding this account. They've been able to pass under the radar pretty well, at least for me, and that's something scum would want to do.

to be 100% completely h with y'all, i just read through chillian's posts and i still cannot recall a single thing they said. there's a lot of "helpful" stuff like poking players and answering "who's from zd" type stuff, also earlier on is a lot of "i'm going to make a post tomorrow. chill i'm busy. guess what i'm still busy"

@Chillian you were around near EOD, and you kept your vote on S&N. can you explain what made you choose them over ZMS? i noticed your reasonings for voting S&N in post #746 but are you able to explain what made them more suspicious than ZMS?

Restless_Ridge: This is probably the one account that's been the hardest for me to get a read on so far. I got nothing.

i got one 4 ya: all the comments about "nobody cares about ZMS right now" made me feel like they cared about ZMS. felt like a last ditch effort even though no one was around. i guess i just now figured out what they meant about not wanting to tie the votes lmao. so do you (yes you, who's reading this right now!) feel like RR's reluctance to join either wagon was more town being paranoid of an easy mislynch, or more scum avoiding looking like they're late for the bus?

 

[Chillian]

to be 100% completely h with y'all, i just read through chillian's posts and i still cannot recall a single thing they said. there's a lot of "helpful" stuff like poking players and answering "who's from zd" type stuff, also earlier on is a lot of "i'm going to make a post tomorrow. chill i'm busy. guess what i'm still busy"

@Chillian you were around near EOD, and you kept your vote on S&N. can you explain what made you choose them over ZMS? i noticed your reasonings for voting S&N in post #746 but are you able to explain what made them more suspicious than ZMS?


i got one 4 ya: all the comments about "nobody cares about ZMS right now" made me feel like they cared about ZMS. felt like a last ditch effort even though no one was around. i guess i just now figured out what they meant about not wanting to tie the votes lmao. so do you (yes you, who's reading this right now!) feel like RR's reluctance to join either wagon was more town being paranoid of an easy mislynch, or more scum avoiding looking like they're late for the bus?

I actually woke up AT EOD lol
That said, even if I was awake before, I would have stuck with S&N. Tbh the more they talked the more we were happy to lynch them. Very much it was the sheer quantity of scuminess. We had the self-vote (which is noobtown at best, and that's not a good best place to be), the linked scumgame and the "reads" that were mostly things that have nothing to do with alignment. I want around for the Miller claim, but I'm not as likely to believe it as the native BGers are, and even if I was their claim didn't fit with the site's Miller meta (claiming immediately). While we were wrong, I still do stand by the positioning of our vote.
Not to say ZMS wasn't scummy. The evidence was there, even we pointed it out at times. But there wasn't as much, in my opinion.