Review M17: Diancie and the Cocoon of Destruction

[UxieLover1994]

In my opinion, the film has been one of the better ones lately, though I might be saying that as a result of growing up with Disney, and being a fan of Kingdom Hearts (in addition to the absolutely awful M16). But it still cannot beat M08, M12, or M15.

Compared with the earlier films, the dub version of M17 is faithful to the Japanese version in spite of the replacement soundtrack. For example, Mewtwo (original series) is symptomatic, with it being treated unfairly by it's creators and Giovanni. In the dub, it instead becomes a Heartless-like creature who wants to take over, or destroy, the world because 4Kids thinks American children only care about world domination plots. And M05's dub makes Annie and Oakley members of Team Rocket and wishing to take over the world, when in the original version, they don't work for any villains, and only want to take over Alto Mare. Also, remember that English ending to M04? 4Kids think American children are too dumb to figure out that Sam is a young Professor Oak.

I can't say anything more on M01, because of the huge nostalgia behind it, and like many fans, I disown M16 for the second Mewtwo without it's own unique background.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

Compared with the earlier films, the dub version of M17 is faithful to the Japanese version in spite of the replacement soundtrack. For example, Mewtwo (original series) is symptomatic, with it being treated unfairly by it's creators and Giovanni. In the dub, it instead becomes a Heartless-like creature who wants to take over, or destroy, the world because 4Kids thinks American children only care about world domination plots. And M05's dub makes Annie and Oakley members of Team Rocket and wishing to take over the world, when in the original version, they don't work for any villains, and only want to take over Alto Mare. Also, remember that English ending to M04? 4Kids think American children are too dumb to figure out that Sam is a young Professor Oak.

Exactly. People act like the music replacing magically transformed the Diancie movie into a different film on the level of all the other examples you listed.

 

[ii kanji]

People act like the music replacing magically transformed the Diancie movie into a different film on the level of all the other examples you listed.

If you repaint the Mona Lisa but replace her enigmatic smile with a cheesy grin, is it still the same painting?

 

[Ryu Taylor]

If you repaint the Mona Lisa but replace her enigmatic smile with a cheesy grin, is it still the same painting?

I think we both know those are entirely different things. If it were an animation edit like if TPCi were to paint a cheesy grin on someone's face during a dramatic moment, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But as it's music replacement, I don't, because I felt like the new soundtrack fit the movie just fine, and I was invested in the film as a result.

 

[Dogasu]

Would Indiana Jones have been the same movie if it had different music?
Would Inception have been the same movie if it had a different soundtrack?
Would Star Wars be the same movie if Darth Vader's theme had been replaced with this?
Etc., etc.

Pokemon isn't any different from any of those. Just because it's a toyetic animated kids' show doesn't mean it deserves to have its fully-orchestrated soundtrack covered up and replaced with synthesizer music any more than any other movie or TV show.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

Would Indiana Jones have been the same movie if it had different music?
Would Inception have been the same movie if it had a different soundtrack?
Would Star Wars be the same movie if Darth Vader's theme had been replaced with this?
Etc., etc.

Pokemon isn't any different from any of those. Just because it's a toyetic animated kids' show doesn't mean it deserves to have its fully-orchestrated soundtrack covered up and replaced with synthesizer music any more than any other movie or TV show.

I'll admit that I would like replacement music to fit as well as the original, or fit better. If it doesn't fit, then I'd have a problem with it. Which is why I generally don't have a problem with the Diancie movie's soundtrack being replaced; I was still invested in the film regardless. I don't know; music and graphical quality never harmed my enjoyment of anything.

 

[Yoshi1001]

Would Indiana Jones have been the same movie if it had different music?
Would Inception have been the same movie if it had a different soundtrack?
Would Star Wars be the same movie if Darth Vader's theme had been replaced with this?
Etc., etc.

Pokemon isn't any different from any of those. Just because it's a toyetic animated kids' show doesn't mean it deserves to have its fully-orchestrated soundtrack covered up and replaced with synthesizer music any more than any other movie or TV show.

Perhaps, but I haven't felt like using the Japanese scores (other than the 5th, and a few cases elsewhere) really elevated the movies in my mind (unlike a number of video games, oddly enough, though the examples I would point to have a rather different compositonal style). They aren't bad, per se, but maybe having a more "professional" or "serious" soundtrack (which seems like the direction of the Japanese movie scores to me) doesn't necessarily resonate with western audiences who are making different comparisons and have different expectations than a Japanese audience. Shinji may be the right person for an Eastern/Japanese audience, but that doesn't mean that his compositions are always the best fit for every audience (for whatever reason, I think Hollywood scores have a wider acceptance factor, or perhaps those composers just have more clout in the world).

 

[Ryu Taylor]

Would Indiana Jones have been the same movie if it had different music?
Would Inception have been the same movie if it had a different soundtrack?
Would Star Wars be the same movie if Darth Vader's theme had been replaced with this?
Etc., etc.

Pokemon isn't any different from any of those. Just because it's a toyetic animated kids' show doesn't mean it deserves to have its fully-orchestrated soundtrack covered up and replaced with synthesizer music any more than any other movie or TV show.

Perhaps, but I haven't felt like using the Japanese scores (other than the 5th, and a few cases elsewhere) really elevated the movies in my mind (unlike a number of video games, oddly enough, though the examples I would point to have a rather different compositonal style). They aren't bad, per se, but maybe having a more "professional" or "serious" soundtrack (which seems like the direction of the Japanese movie scores to me) doesn't necessarily resonate with western audiences who are making different comparisons and have different expectations than a Japanese audience. Shinji may be the right person for an Eastern/Japanese audience, but that doesn't mean that his compositions are always the best fit for every audience (for whatever reason, I think Hollywood scores have a wider acceptance factor, or perhaps those composers just have more clout in the world).

To be fair, Shinji Miyazaki certainly is a talented composer, and I like his compositions. It's just that I think the dub scores fit just as well (except in the first movie where the awesome Japanese score is better than the great dub score to my ears, and the second and third movies where the dub soundtracks were better to me). Like I said before, it's not the music itself, it's how it's used. For example, sad scenes need sad music, which is why the first movie dub's "Tears of Life" works just as great as the original's "奇跡の涙 (The Miracle of Tears)".

 

[UxieLover1994]

To be fair, Shinji Miyazaki certainly is a talented composer, and I like his compositions. It's just that I think the dub scores fit just as well (except in the first movie where the awesome Japanese score is better than the great dub score to my ears, and the second and third movies where the dub soundtracks were better to me). Like I said before, it's not the music itself, it's how it's used. For example, sad scenes need sad music, which is why the first movie dub's "Tears of Life" works just as great as the original's "奇跡の涙 (The Miracle of Tears)".

Don't forget the opening and ending themes of films as well. M17's ending theme, Open My Eyes, is in my views one of the best themes around in the dub (though not as good as M02's The Power of One or M06's Make A Wish). Earlier films mainly had cheesy American pop music. M01 is a major offender; it's like replacing the main theme of Kingdom Hearts, Hikari (Simple and Clean in English), with several low-budget songs from a Disney Channel celebrity who would cause serve controversy in a decade.

What I was meaning is what if Disney replaced Hikari with several of the stars-of-the-moment's songs, replaced all the background music with pop garbage, and took away the meaning of the original game's theme and replaced it with something only children would appreciate? What if they made Riku's personality into one who'd try to purge the universe in darkness out of a mean strike rather than to save one of his closest friends? Those were the changes made for M01 in addition to the music.

The impact of the music in M17 doesn't bother me (though some are still stuck in my head, such as the one for the shopping scene). It would be nice if they released the film with an alternate track containing the original music, but regardless, the film was great, and a definite improvement over M16.

 

[ii kanji]

Whatever anyone's preferences are, my view is that the pokemon anime (just like any other media) is a little art form and I'm sure Shinji Miyazaki considers himself an artist (I certainly consider his work to be art!!). Besides music changing being utterly pointless (would a western audience really notice the difference? Doubt it.), why are these musical masterpieces being censored?!?!?!

 

[The Infidel]

People act like the music replacing magically transformed the Diancie movie into a different film on the level of all the other examples you listed.

If you repaint the Mona Lisa but replace her enigmatic smile with a cheesy grin, is it still the same painting?

No but if you change the background music in the museum where the original is kept, does that mean the original is no longer the same Mona Lisa, NO.

There is no problem in my opinion with the music in the dub. If you prefer the original, by all means watch the original, but I don't see what the problem is with changing it for something else internationally?

 

[ii kanji]

People act like the music replacing magically transformed the Diancie movie into a different film on the level of all the other examples you listed.

If you repaint the Mona Lisa but replace her enigmatic smile with a cheesy grin, is it still the same painting?

No but if you change the background music in the museum where the original is kept, does that mean the original is no longer the same Mona Lisa, NO.

There is no problem in my opinion with the music in the dub. If you prefer the original, by all means watch the original, but I don't see what the problem is with changing it for something else internationally?

The difference between TV/film and a painting is that both visuals and audio are vitally important for the finished product in the former, whereas yes you're right no one would give a damn if someone changed the music playing at the Louvre.

There's no arguing that changing the voices/music for the dub does render it something quite different from the original.
(And no, I am not suggesting that the anime should not be dubbed so please no one start on that track.)

 

[The Infidel]

People act like the music replacing magically transformed the Diancie movie into a different film on the level of all the other examples you listed.

If you repaint the Mona Lisa but replace her enigmatic smile with a cheesy grin, is it still the same painting?

No but if you change the background music in the museum where the original is kept, does that mean the original is no longer the same Mona Lisa, NO.

There is no problem in my opinion with the music in the dub. If you prefer the original, by all means watch the original, but I don't see what the problem is with changing it for something else internationally?

The difference between TV/film and a painting is that both visuals and audio are vitally important for the finished product in the former, whereas yes you're right no one would give a damn if someone changed the music playing at the Louvre.

There's no arguing that changing the voices/music for the dub does render it something quite different from the original.
(And no, I am not suggesting that the anime should not be dubbed so please no one start on that track.)

I understand how dubbing can change things, I found out recently the entire concept of "the shadow realm" in Yugioh was entirely made up in the dub. So I understand how dubbing and cutting can alter the end product. But the music itself doesn't really alter the experience, maybe you might prefer the original track, but the tracks they make are still good at accompanying the various scenes they are matched too. I don't recall a time where the background music seemed out of place for what was going on?

 

[ii kanji]

But the music itself doesn't really alter the experience

Well I'm afraid I beg to differ.
E.g. Imagine the Swan Lake ballet being danced to the Spice Girls' greatest hits? The music matters!

...but the tracks they make are still good at accompanying the various scenes they are matched too. I don't recall a time where the background music seemed out of place for what was going on?

Feel free to have a snoop through Dogasu's Backpack where many, many examples of this are given.

 

[Yoshi1001]

Don't forget the opening and ending themes of films as well. M17's ending theme, Open My Eyes, is in my views one of the best themes around in the dub (though not as good as M02's The Power of One or M06's Make A Wish). Earlier films mainly had cheesy American pop music. M01 is a major offender; it's like replacing the main theme of Kingdom Hearts, Hikari (Simple and Clean in English), with several low-budget songs from a Disney Channel celebrity who would cause serve controversy in a decade.

Personally, I think the replacement of "Together With The Wind" with "We're a Miracle" (yeah, I know "Don't Say You Love Me" was heavily promoted, but "We're a Miracle" is the first song in the credits and therefore stands for the movie in my mind) was a very good choice. Yes, "Together With the Wind" is a beautiful song, but I don't think a translated version would have been able to fit the movie as well. Honestly, it's amazing that they were able to find a pre-existing song by a major artist that matched the movie/franchise that precisely. In regards to other songs, I understand some of the criticisms leveled at "Brother My Brother" (though I still like the song very much overall), but I'm not all that disturbed by its use in the film.

 

[Dogasu]

doesn't necessarily resonate with western audiences

You do realize that's just the BS dubbing companies used to use to justify replacing the music and that there's absolutely no truth to that whatsoever, right?

People act like the music replacing magically transformed the Diancie movie into a different film on the level of all the other examples you listed.

A movie dub doesn't have to be as bad as Mewtwo Strikes Back's was in order for people to voice their perfectly legitimate complaints.

No but if you change the background music in the museum where the original is kept, does that mean the original is no longer the same Mona Lisa, NO.

Well that's a shit comparison to begin with because the Mona Lisa doesn't have a set soundtrack the way Pocket Monsters does. You're comparing apples and oranges.

But yes, people's enjoyment of the Mona Lisa would indeed be affected if the Louvre decided start playing, say, Insane Clown Posse songs in the area where the Mona Lisa is kept. It would be awkward and distracting and people wouldn't be able to enjoy the painting as much. There might be some people who love the change - Insane Clown Posse fans, for one - but most people would find the change pointless and inappropriate.

 

[Yoshi1001]

You do realize ... that there's absolutely no truth to that whatsoever, right?

Fifteen years of running an internet radio station has taught me otherwise (or at least that there is some truth to idea that a decent number of people prefer the dub music). There are exceptions, but it seems that the songs that generate the least interest (though not necessarily derision) among listeners tend to be the Japanese movie scores (the TV music typically fares better, as does game music) and the less "Western" (for lack of a better term) Japanese vocal songs. This stands in contrast to the Italian vocal music, which is extremely popular (even though I would guess I usually get more listening from Japan than Italy-definitely true for the last 30 days). That being said, there are a number of Japanese songs that have historically done well:

-OK!
-ONE
-Kaze no Message
-V
-I Am a Hero

And some others (Tweedia is currently getting some good buzz). I really wish I could get my hands on the dub Diancie score and try that out on there to see how it does by comparison.

I don't claim my experience is all-encompassing or doesn't have some sort of bias, but I do think it shows that there is an audience out there that contradicts your statement.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

I don't claim my experience is all-encompassing or doesn't have some sort of bias, but I do think it shows that there is an audience out there that contradicts your statement.

I think, out of all of us, you have the most experience with foreign Pokemon musical appeal, being as you've actually spoken to one of the 4kids composers.

 

[Dogasu]

"Some people like some dub music" is not the same thing as "music doesn't resonate with Westerners unless it's written by a white person."

 

[Yoshi1001]

I was disputing your statement that there was "absolutely no truth" to the idea that some audiences wouldn't prefer something different than how the film was produced in Japan. Also, as I stated, this disparity seems to most particularly affect the scores to the movies, not the games (which, with few exceptions, are also eastern-composed). So, I think the situation (and my opinion) is more complicated than you're making it out to be.