Do you think the Contest arc opened the show up to romance and shoujo storylines?

[Jo-Jo]

Drew's way too obnoxious to be normal.

This is an interesting discussion... isn't it a huge over-simplification to say that all the female characters are aimed at girls and all the male ones aimed at boys? As pointed out, that approach completely ignores the existence of fanservice. It also reduces the characters to a bunch of bland role models whose main purpose is to promote a message-of-the-day rather than behave like real people. IMO, once you start to plan the behaviour of any character based on "which actions will most endear him/her to X demograph?", you're writing a sucky character. (Why is it necessary for everyone to be 'relatable', anyway? Does anyone care whether or not Harley is relatable?)

I also don't see why we should treat it as fact that the entire audience is only capable of sympathising with characters of the same sex. I don't have any difficulties sympathising with male characters.

What? That plotline is a dime-a-dozen. I'm sure there are plenty of lad's TV shows where girls are fighting it out over a boy.

Kimagura Orange Road? Just about every harem anime ever ^^?

Heehee, I remember Tenchi Muyo. Interestingly, Tenchi was the most boring character on that show. The girls, on the other hand, were a riot.

A big trend nowadays in shows with male protagonists is a female love-interest who is strong, opinionated and intelligent, yet hopelessly emotionally dependant on the hero. E.g. all the Tenchi women, Rose, Martha and Sarah Jane in 'Dr. Who', Meg in 'Hercules', Elizabeth in 'Pirates of the Caribbean', Fiona in 'Shrek', Cameron, Stacey and to a lesser extent Cuddy in 'House'... It's like a politically correct evolution of male fanservice. Much as I love Misty, she fits this pattern, too. Luckily she got plenty of sidekick stuff to do and not just LI stuff.

I would say that every female character on this show was aimed at girls. One thing I've been meaning to ask, (not just you, but anyone in this thread), but why is Misty seen as the ONLY female role model in the show? Why are May and Dawn seen as being "for guys" but nobody has a problem saying that Misty was there "for girls?"
...
My question is why do people always argue that May and Dawn are "less" for girls than Misty is? I've tried to wrap my mind around this concept several times, but I don't get it.

I can't answer that question because I don't see people saying that. Examples?

But I can certainly see why May and Dawn's fanservicey nature would turn off female viewers. Especially since Misty's 'thing' was that she didn't have to be gorgeous to kick ass (see: her interactions with her sisters). She effectively got replaced by a character who was more generically pretty, and also 'weaker', more pliable, more submissive and less intelligent. If you didn't know, the constant sexualisation of women in the media is a hot button in the feminist community. To be brief, we bloody hate it. The fact that it's now being done in increasing blatant ways to ten year olds is kind of proving our point.

Mind you, I'm not sure whether that's really all the animators' doing or if it's mostly the fanbase.

That's what I keep asking them, I never get an answer. Its almost like they purposely avoid the question for some reason.

Aaand we're back on "they". As if "we" share a brain. And as if "we" spend our whole lives considering female role models, shoujo and relatability.

What precisely is it you want to know, who precisely do you require an answer from, and for what precise reason do you think you should generalise whatever answer you get and apply it to the entire female population?

 

[Cybersai]

This is an interesting discussion... isn't it a huge over-simplification to say that all the female characters are aimed at girls and all the male ones aimed at boys?

Doesn't it seem likely in a work of fiction aimed at children ages 6-12 that certain characters are meant to appeal to them? Not counting Jessie because she's a villain, May was the ONLY leading female character on the show for 191 episodes. Likewise, Dawn is the ONLY leading female character on the show for the forseeable future.

If that's the case, why didn't the writers have an all male cast? If May/Dawn didn't exist and Misty got replaced by Brendan who did Contests or something, wouldn't the female fanbase complain that there are no girls who travel with Ash anymore? Answer that question right now, say Dawn left the show and was replaced by a guy, you wouldn't find it a bit off that there is no "good" female character traveling with Ash and Brock?

May and Dawn are essentially going through the same character growth that Ash went through. By that logic, they're showing kids who start off as "weak" and grow into powerful trainers over the course of their run. What does this imply to the audience?

But I can certainly see why May and Dawn's fanservicey nature would turn off female viewers.

I've wondered about that, but no girls have a problem with Dawn's dresses from what I've seen. Or the hearts/clovers that come out of her Pokeball when she does an appeal...both girly things that May's Contests didn't have. They didn't have a problem with Dawn dressing as a cheerleader either. Hell, I barely see any girls complain about the length of her skirt. So clearly a lot of girls are either indifferent or like the fanservice Dawn provides. Why didn't May receive the same treatment? It really makes me wonder how the audience would react if May stripped into a pretty dress everytime she entered a Contest back in AG....

She effectively got replaced by a character who was more generically pretty, and also 'weaker', more pliable, more submissive and less intelligent.

But had a larger role. And was developed over the course of the series to be independent and more powerful. Does that not say something for female empowerment?

Hell...most of Misty's character development on the other hand prepared her for motherhood, a female stereotype. She essentially went from a hot-tempered teen into a psuedo-teenage mother. Even after Togepi left they gave her an Azurill to keep her as a maternal figure. Is that not stereotypical...that girls have to be the mothers and can't have a career alongside the hero?

I know we've discussed this before many times in various ways, but I simply don't get it. Misty had far more gender specific roles shoved upon her that influenced how she acted.

Aaand we're back on "they". As if "we" share a brain. And as if "we" spend our whole lives considering female role models, shoujo and relatability.

I'm sorry.

What precisely is it you want to know, who precisely do you require an answer from, and for what precise reason do you think you should generalise whatever answer you get and apply it to the entire female population?

I want to know exactly why whenever I make a post in the general anime section saying that May was for the female fanbase, I get jumped on by a bunch of girls saying that "I shouldn't speak for them." On the other hand, if I made the same post and talked about Misty instead, none of them would have a problem and would all agree with me. I haven't tried this with Dawn yet, but I'm awfully curious how they would react if I said Dawn is probably meant to be a focal character for girls as well.

And its also evident in the character clubs both here and on SPP. The Misty club is constantly kept active by female fans. The May club is next to dead and is only kept alive by male fans. The Dawn club is kept alive by both, but that's just because she's the current female on the cast. And it's not that May is less popular than Misty, because we both know the polls that show she's just as popular in the fandom. So why is that? The loyalty in the character clubs proves to me what certain females in the fandom consider empowering to them. I'm wondering why May (and Dawn, to a lesser extent) don't get the same treatment. Is it because Misty came first? Is that it? I have no clue.

 

[A Concerned Solomon]

Drew's way too obnoxious to be normal.

This is an interesting discussion... isn't it a huge over-simplification to say that all the female characters are aimed at girls and all the male ones aimed at boys? As pointed out, that approach completely ignores the existence of fanservice. It also reduces the characters to a bunch of bland role models whose main purpose is to promote a message-of-the-day rather than behave like real people. IMO, once you start to plan the behaviour of any character based on "which actions will most endear him/her to X demograph?", you're writing a sucky character. (Why is it necessary for everyone to be 'relatable', anyway? Does anyone care whether or not Harley is relatable?)

I also don't see why we should treat it as fact that the entire audience is only capable of sympathising with characters of the same sex. I don't have any difficulties sympathising with male characters.


Heehee, I remember Tenchi Muyo. Interestingly, Tenchi was the most boring character on that show. The girls, on the other hand, were a riot.

A big trend nowadays in shows with male protagonists is a female love-interest who is strong, opinionated and intelligent, yet hopelessly emotionally dependant on the hero. E.g. all the Tenchi women, Rose, Martha and Sarah Jane in 'Dr. Who', Meg in 'Hercules', Elizabeth in 'Pirates of the Caribbean', Fiona in 'Shrek', Cameron, Stacey and to a lesser extent Cuddy in 'House'... It's like a politically correct evolution of male fanservice. Much as I love Misty, she fits this pattern, too. Luckily she got plenty of sidekick stuff to do and not just LI stuff.


I can't answer that question because I don't see people saying that. Examples?

But I can certainly see why May and Dawn's fanservicey nature would turn off female viewers. Especially since Misty's 'thing' was that she didn't have to be gorgeous to kick ass (see: her interactions with her sisters). She effectively got replaced by a character who was more generically pretty, and also 'weaker', more pliable, more submissive and less intelligent. If you didn't know, the constant sexualisation of women in the media is a hot button in the feminist community. To be brief, we bloody hate it. The fact that it's now being done in increasing blatant ways to ten year olds is kind of proving our point.

Mind you, I'm not sure whether that's really all the animators' doing or if it's mostly the fanbase.


Aaand we're back on "they". As if "we" share a brain. And as if "we" spend our whole lives considering female role models, shoujo and relatability.

What precisely is it you want to know, who precisely do you require an answer from, and for what precise reason do you think you should generalise whatever answer you get and apply it to the entire female population?

Well, the sad story is that main characters do seem to serve a kind of "role model" purpose. As soon as Ash's ego gets huge, for instance, it has to get knocked down to size. So he runs into an AJ. Minor characters don't have the same problem; AJ comes out of the episode still thinking he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and gets the bonus of Brock and Misty agreeing. This is why I like minor characters a bit better, incidentally.

And now...uh, why exactly is "having a big role" supposed to be "empowering" to women? Why are you still trying to play this "empowering" card?

 

[Rocketshipper]

isn't it a huge over-simplification to say that all the female characters are aimed at girls and all the male ones aimed at boys

Yeah, I think it is. Off the top of my head I can think of several examples of girls that are obviously aimed at boys. Belldandy (from Ah My Goddess) would be one; she's quite and passive and caters to Keichii's every whim most of the time, she's pretty much a blatant male fantasy. Same could be said for almost any girl from a Harem anime. And of course their are the shoujo series with bishounen protaganists to appeal to the girls (like X).

If that's the case, why didn't the writers have an all male cast? If May/Dawn didn't exist and Misty got replaced by Brendan who did Contests or something, wouldn't the female fanbase complain that there are no girls who travel with Ash anymore?

Because it's more balanced and interesting to have both male and female characters? Most shounen series have female side-kicks (Bulma in DB, Keiko in Yu Yu Hakusho, Anzu in Yugioh, etc.) and some have gotten away with a female protaganist (Slayers, Escaflowne, Angelic Layer, Cutey Honey...). And to take a stab at the second question, I'd have to say...it would depend. Some probably would, but I'd bet that a lot of others might not care at all. Afterall, there are Shoujo shows with all male main casts (like Weiz Cruz) and I've met female fans of DBZ and other typical shounen shows, who aren't watching because of the female characters.

 

[Luna Tiger]

If that's the case, why didn't the writers have an all male cast? If May/Dawn didn't exist and Misty got replaced by Brendan who did Contests or something, wouldn't the female fanbase complain that there are no girls who travel with Ash anymore? Answer that question right now, say Dawn left the show and was replaced by a guy, you wouldn't find it a bit off that there is no "good" female character traveling with Ash and Brock?

I've said this before, and to simply put: if the writers' were going to use Brendan, they would have had to shuck Brock yet again. They were NOT going to continue the show without a girl by Ash's side, simply because that's how the show's formula goes. Brock had vanished once; he wasn't going to again. Misty was the only other choice.

 

[Cybersai]

Shooting Ristar, notice how the question you asked me, (which was really for others) went unanswered?

The mystery continues it seems. I don't think we'll ever figure it out.

 

[A Concerned Solomon]

It's a rhetorical question designed specifically to show that you have no answer; thus, your assumptions might not be valid. I'd be shocked if you DID have one.

 

[Cybersai]

I do have one, and that its the fact that Misty came first...and that's all I can think of. I truly wonder what people would think if May was introduced in Kanto instead of Misty...do you think it would be any different?

And that's why its bizarre that the question is continually avoided. I don't think they have an answer either.

 

[A Concerned Solomon]

There's too many variables to even begin attacking that question, the infamous "roles" issue being chief among them. What if May was a sidekick and then come the second time through, the Whirl Cup got pumped up as the biggest thing ever and Misty got a bunch of super-neat rivals...and Togepi gets put off to ruin Dawn instead? I think we'd have a truly pissed-off May fanbase, but would it be boys or girls? Who the hell knows?

 

[Cybersai]

Well...that's moving too far from the original point.

I want to know why so many people refuse to consider May and Dawn's inclusion as leading females to be for their specific genders. They're essentially Ash-type characters, but female and with Contests in the place of Gyms. I want to know if Contests and the storylines we get in them seem to be more female oriented, which may lead to more shipping.

Notice how even Jo-Jo has disappeared despite the fact that she asked me the questions on the previous page?

This is like Planet of the Apes, nobody will admit that those damn dirty apes took over the Earth, yet they all know it. Why do people try to avoid questions like this anyway?

 

[Rocketshipper]

I want to know why so many people refuse to consider May and Dawn's inclusion as leading females to be for their specific genders.

I can say that my own personal "refusal" to consider this is because Pokemon is a Shounen series, and so it makes more sense to me to assume that May, Hikari, Misty, and other females on the show, are written with the primary male audience in mind. Maybe you underestimate what would be appealing to guys?

I want to know if Contests and the storylines we get in them seem to be more female oriented, which may lead to more shipping.

Shipping is not the sole property of the shoujo "genre" or females. Shounen series are not devoid of shipping, some of them revolve around it (Kimagura Orange Road, Ah My Goddess, Ai Yori Aoshi, etc.). And my own answer to that question is that contests do not seem more female oriented to me. This is starting to bring that annoying "contest battles vs "regular" battles" thing to mind again. Contest battles are battles with a few different rules, but they are still battles, and if Gyms are meant to appeal to guys, then I don't see why Contest battles wouldn't also be aimed at guys. And I've seen Shounen series with similar plot and character interactions to the ones seen in May's subplot.

 

[Cybersai]

I can say that my own personal "refusal" to consider this is because Pokemon is a Shounen series, and so it makes more sense to me to assume that May, Hikari, Misty, and other females on the show, are written with the primary male audience in mind. Maybe you underestimate what would be appealing to guys?

Ok, I get that part. I understand that in a shonen series like Pokemon that the girls will always have something that appeal to guys. But the part of my question that's avoided is, if that's the case, then why do girls always see Misty as the most identifyable one of the trio? Why is Misty seen as being for girls, but May/Dawn aren't?

 

[Luna Tiger]

Ok, I get that part. I understand that in a shonen series like Pokemon that the girls will always have something that appeal to guys. But the part of my question that's avoided is, if that's the case, then why do girls always see Misty as the most identifyable one of the trio? Why is Misty seen as being for girls, but May/Dawn aren't?

What guy would apreciate a girl who yells, get's her way, and basically abuses guys who she sees asw doing something wrong? The only thing fanservicey about Misty to guys was her outfit, but everything else lent to her ability to not take crap from people, even her friends, while still having her own faults and struggles.

Misty has power; she stood on her own two legs. She was equal parts tomboy and girly girl. She looked out for other women by dealing with Brock. She didn't fall in love with the good-looking prince who was perfectly capable of providing for her; she chose her friend - slash - love interest over having a happily ever after. She was in all essense the clashing of two opposite ends of the female spectrum.

And you know what's funny? 8D I hate Misty with a passion. I loathe her utterly. Yet she was definitely a better role model for women than May and Dawn are, simply because she covered more than they have or are in their runs.

 

[A Concerned Solomon]

I'm pretty sure she was either saving Brock from himself or herself and the group from the embarrassment of Brock's horrid, horrid pick-up lines.

What guy would appreciate that? One who found it all amusing. Also one who is more "friend" than "handsome prince," pretty much the majority of the male population. Jo-Jo more or less addressed the "strong-willed but emotionally dependent" thing earlier, so I'll leave that at that.

(Of course, I have no idea who the monstrosity known as "Fanfic Misty" is aimed for. You know that one; probable rape victim as a child, half a page spent describing her breasts (...I swear I'm not making this up), ties to Team Rocket, and soap-opera dealings with the insane evil of Fanfic May, the world's most sadistic bitch and Slut Extraordinaire. Bonus points if Fanfic Daisy is around and was oblivious to multiple childhood rapes performed by one of her old boyfriends. Oh, Fanfic Misty also has a Dragonite for some reason.)

 

[Chiru]

...I thought pokemon needed a female traveling person friend so it wouldn't be all boys (C3:LOL Gay)<-ignore this

Besides the Misty era or in the 1998 Pokemon the anime was more how should I say it more realistic. Holidays and festivals aren't always about Pokemon Pokemon Pokemon. The kimono episode now would be celebrating Pokemon Pokemon Pokemon.

Although in BF there was the king and Aipom ep but it use to be more like the real world but then again this is just my opinion

~C2

(random thought someone answer this I thought that kimono day was yearly how come the AG and DP hasn't had that day yet?)

 

[Jo-Jo]

Aggggh. *waves cloves of garlic at Fanfic!Misty*

I'm pretty sure she was either saving Brock from himself or herself and the group from the embarrassment of Brock's horrid, horrid pick-up lines.

XD Agreed.

I liked that analysis, Luna&Blues.

Whatever Misty's motivation, the ear-pulling is an example of how she is an active character, which is one of the things that makes her appealling in my eyes. She does and says whatever she wants. When she thinks something is the right course, she'll do it, or at least advocate it to the death. She's not always right, and she's often bossy and insufferable, but having the courage of her convictions is a very attractive, "girl-power"ish sort of trait.

May is passive in comparison. She drifts into going on a Pokemon journey because apparently that's easier than admitting to her family that she doesn't like Pokemon (I know she did it to travel, but she nevertheless opted for the path of least resistance. She could have broken it to Norman after he gave her that badge case that she had no interest in being a trainer; I daresay she could have travelled without a Pokemon). She ends up a co-ordinator because she sees a contest and decides on the spur of the moment to enter them herself, and gets into rivalries with Drew and Harley because they pick a fight with her. Everything works out for her, of course, but mainly because of luck. She fortunately decides that Pokemon are for her after all, fortunately stumbles upon a career that is tailored to her tastes, and as a result, fortunately never has to deal with disappointing her parents or standing up for her right to not like Pokemon. There was no character growth involved, and no difficult decisions. Things just happen her way because she's the protagonist. The entire sequence was immensely dissatisfying from start to finish.

I'm not trying to bash May or say that Misty was better, but if Scott85 insists on making a big deal over the fact that Misty has more female fans (bitter much, dude? ), I suggest as a possible reason that women might be likelier to appreciate female characters who are active rather than passive. I don't actually know if that's a factor because, as I keep having to say, I don't think that all women have the same opinions or that I'm qualified to speak for them. Which is the main reason I haven't answered "the question"; I could tell you why I prefer Misty, but I've already done that dozens of times in different threads. I also have no desire to turn yet another topic into Misty vs May. This isn't SPPF.

(Although, saying that May having a bigger role than Misty negates the fact that she's also 'weaker', less bright, etc. in the relatability stakes is a WTF argument if ever I heard one. Who cares? 'Annoying character' + 'bigger role' doesn't = 'better character'; it = 'annoying character that we have to watch way more of than anyone else except Ash'.)

...I thought pokemon needed a female traveling person friend so it wouldn't be all boys (C3:LOL Gay)<-ignore this

Heh, quite true. While there are plenty of reasons to think May and Dawn are meant to be 'for the girls', the mere fact that they're female is a poor one. Last I checked, women made up 50% of the population. The natural state of affairs would be for a gender-balanced cast. Pokemon actually has fewer girls in it than it should. The counter argument I've been seeing in here seems to be that the natural state is for an all-male cast, and the only reason the writers deign to include female characters is to pander to an extra demographic. Kinda screwy, hmm?

 

[Cybersai]

There was no character growth involved, and no difficult decisions. Things just happen her way because she's the protagonist. The entire sequence was immensely dissatisfying from start to finish.

That's really no different than Dawn and her desire to become a coordinator simply because of her mother. She decides to travel with Ash/Brock in the spur of the moment, and unlike May, she's already pretty good at Contests so there's no learning curve with her appeals or battles.

She may have to deal with Pokemon like Buizel and Piplup (although nowadays Piplup doesn't give her any trouble), but other than that, what is the difference?

 

[Habunake]

I suggest as a possible reason that women might be likelier to appreciate female characters who are active rather than passive. I don't actually know if that's a factor because, as I keep having to say, I don't think that all women have the same opinions or that I'm qualified to speak for them

I'm not a women, but I never found Misty's 'tude that appealing...I mean, maybe I just didn't like her snappy comebacks? Maybe I never found her humour that funny? I dunno.

Now don't get me wrong, May wasn't exactly the coolest with he attitude. In fact, I like May for what she brought to the show...not really her herself (I say that's fair, ne?). And my main problem with Misty is the writers didn't give her any rivals at all, nor really any plot besides "Water Pokemon Master" which was...not expanded on besides here and there, like the Whirl Cup.

I guess I like Dawn alot (depsite her not having much too distinguish her yet) is she's spunky and girly, but not rude like Misty was nor passive like May. And I'm like that, so I can relate. I guess.

Besides the Misty era or in the 1998 Pokemon the anime was more how should I say it more realistic. Holidays and festivals aren't always about Pokemon Pokemon Pokemon. The kimono episode now would be celebrating Pokemon Pokemon Pokemon.

The episode that involved a Ghost Pokemon that fused toghether Venausaur and Blastoise, and could change it's form into a variety of things was realistic? 0.o

 

[Chiru]

Pokemon so far equals 2 boys or 3 and 1 girl to balance....What is there a law saying no there can't be more than 1 girl to travel with in the main cast for the entire season???? It is true half the world is female so why.....I'm overeacting....yeah okay I'll shut up I think I'm off topic...

 

[Jo-Jo]

That's really no different than Dawn and her desire to become a coordinator simply because of her mother. She decides to travel with Ash/Brock in the spur of the moment, and unlike May, she's already pretty good at Contests so there's no learning curve with her appeals or battles.

She may have to deal with Pokemon like Buizel and Piplup (although nowadays Piplup doesn't give her any trouble), but other than that, what is the difference?

Errrrr, you were the one who said that May and Dawn are better female role models than Misty, so what's your point?