HMs, Any Use?

[H-con]

Another tedious thing is the dilemma of sacrificing valuable move-slots on crappy moves like Cut or add a specialized pokémon for this. This often involves removing a party candidate, which I for one find annoying and tedious, but preferable to having to use move-slots at moves like Cut. In addition, if I'm not running anything physical water on my team, I rarely have Waterfall (though I rarely if ever run no special Water types, making Surf easy enough to implement), and Strength is simply not viable compared to a lot of other moves (though early on it can have some effect (better than Tackle), though you usually get it too late), and Fly, while hitting hard enough, takes two turns two complete. I don't mind Flying types, but I don't like forcing one on the team for the purpose of rapid transit, and using boxes takes a lot of time.

At least BW was a step in the right direction when it comes to HM and usage, but I'd would rather see HMs entirely removed, and perhaps replaced by something a bit less restricting on the gameplay. Special items perhaps? Or simply having innate abilities, though that would again require to have specific pokémon with you at times. That's why I think they should find a better option than Fly. That, and simply for the sake of logic.

 

[The Knights of Wario Land]

Well, at least the HM situation was better than it was in Generation 1, where you could NEVER forget those moves. You could have accidentally taught your awesome Lv. 100 Mewtwo Flash or Strength and BAM! now it's useless.

 

[Infinity Mk-II]

They should just make HM moves removable by normal means. They should've been since the TM pocket was introduced (And make it so you can't give them to a pokémon, naturally) as the reason they weren't removeable to begin with was because you could get stuck if you didn't have the HM with you.

Also I think HMs should be made useful for things outside simply getting past obstacles. Like, Cut was good before gen. IV because it could be used to cut down the grass, so you could get away from wild battles (though it IS a tedious method, specially in Gen. III, having it work like Strength would've been better). It's also why Fly is good, it's purely for usefulness purposes. Surf is kind of the good point in the middle, unlocking areas and you wanting to use it on your own.


Then again, I would've gotten rid of the move relearner and instead have pokemon remember any move it had succesfully learned. So yeah.

 

[Almonds]

They should just make HM moves removable by normal means. They should've been since the TM pocket was introduced (And make it so you can't give them to a pokémon, naturally) as the reason they weren't removeable to begin with was because you could get stuck if you didn't have the HM with you.

It annoyed me when I played each generation games for the first time. Getting stuck is fine, needing an HM to go is fine, but the problem is WHERE to get the HMs. I wish I wouldn't have to walk around everywhere to talk with everyone just to get one damn HM to leave the area. It's pretty frustrating, talking to every NPC there is to find the HM when you don't know who has it. If every HMs were given out by storyline-NPCs as a must (the professor's assistant, rival, champion, etc) it would make the game much easier.

Also I think HMs should be made useful for things outside simply getting past obstacles. Like, Cut was good before gen. IV because it could be used to cut down the grass, so you could get away from wild battles (though it IS a tedious method, specially in Gen. III, having it work like Strength would've been better).

Which is why the Pokemon Mart sells Repels for that XD Or a Cleanse Tag.

Then again, I would've gotten rid of the move relearner and instead have pokemon remember any move it had succesfully learned. So yeah.

Again, we have Move Tutors for that. Trade a Heartscale or Shards and poof! The problem is that sometimes the Move Tutors live in hard-to-reach places, in the middle of an ocean or a route, that we can't visit directly using Fly.




I agree that HMs could be replaced with items. Remember cheats in Gen 1? There was a surfing item (which I still don't know its name) that allowed you to surf before getting any badges. It would be cool if there were HM items like that OFFICIALLY as an event item.

 

[Infinity Mk-II]

Getting stuck is fine

I meant literally getting stuck. Having the game unwinnable. Getting rid of Fly and Surf in Seafoam Islands with no way of getting them back kind of stuck. That is why you can't delete them in RGB.

Which is why the Pokemon Mart sells Repels for that XD Or a Cleanse Tag.

That isn't my point. I'm talking that the move has an extra usability purely for convenience besides fixing broken bridges. Of course it's something extremelly minor and overshadowed by repels, that is why I think they should be given better side-effects. But it IS an example nevertheless.

Again, we have Move Tutors for that.

I would've gotten rid of the move relearner

Implying that move tutors would simply teach rare moves, working in a more traditional way. And this mechanic would simply allow to put in any slot any move the pokémon had learned (overriding natural learnests and TMs). Players are expected to do that competitively anyways, it just gets rid of the bothersome step of getting the heart scales and visiting someone and screwing yourself over for getting rid of the wrong thing.

In any case, I will agree that the concept of only these given moves having special effects being kind of silly when you could just like Hyperbeam the tree to oblivion or something... but I guess making it so you can use any move outside battle would cause all sort of problems in its own.
Though there ARE already a few of non HM moves that also have an in-field effect...

 

[Kutomba]

Not being able to trade Pokemon that knows an HM move.

SO ANNOYING.

 

[Hunter Blade]

Cut is good for the beginning of games.
Rock Smash is extremely helpful in-game if you don't catch any Fighting-types. It also adds the Defense-lowering part, which is nice.
Fly I like, because it's the strongest Flying move that doesn't have recoil. Not including Sky Attack.
Strength.... 80 Power, twice as strong as many Normal-type attacks until about level 30+ with Take Down. 100% accuracy v. 85% + recoil for Take Down.
Whirlpool is................................................... I just work around it with my move pools.
Waterfall is amazing on something like Feraligatr and Gyarados.
Surf is also amazing, if you can deal with it hitting your Pokemon in double and triple battles.
Flash wasn't worth an HM, since you only have one place usually that you need it. Changed to a TM in Gen IV.
Defog.... why is this an HM?
Dive is just a Water-type version of Dig, so I dunno about it. I never use it.

 

[Blue Dragon]

I personally don't mind HM's at all. For the useless ones like Strength, Cut, Rock Smash etc you only have to stick them onto an "HM Slave" for a short while in order to progress the game. And then you can just box that Pokemon and never have to worry about havng those HM's once the story mode is complete.

Also moves like Surf and Waterfall are very useful competitive battling moves due to their power and reliable accuracy. As an example I have a Gyarados, which clearly it's dominant stat is it's Attack stat with Dragon Dance. So I choose Waterfall as a powerful "100% accurate" phyisical attacking move.

I don't think it's much to complain about when you can just use a Pokemon that you clearly won't be training for an HM slave lol.

 

[Loliqueen]

Surf and waterfall are actually pretty decent moves. I've seen them used in competitive play. Just sayin'...

 

[Nour386]

Now, I'm pretty fed up with HMs, mostly because a lot of them are simply silly, annoying to drag around, and in most cases, add nothing to the gameplay except pure annoyance.

The HMs that annoy me the most is Cut and Rock Smash. In most instances, they are basically the same, removing an obstacle. Why you need to use a special move to cut down a tiny bush just in order to advance is beyond me, and quite frankly is illogical and pretty stupid. Rock Smash is the same, except there's a rock in the way. I can't be the only one that has explored something and found an area that requires Cut/Rock Smash without having it with you.
Besides, it makes no sense that you can't burn the tree down, or Karate Chop a rock away. I mean, besides setting the forest ablaze...

Fly has it uses, but it still annoys me. It just makes no sense, no matter how you try to explain it, how a Pidgey can carry you from one town to another. I mean, Teleport would make more sense than Fly. Now, I'm all for having a form of rapid-transit available, but I don't think they should remove any logic from the games to achieve this. Fly in HGSS would make a perfect example of this. You can fly from Indigo Plateau to the Safari Zone, but not from Route 28 to Mt Silver. If anything, they should add a "Radius", that increases when a pokémon gets bigger, allowing for longer flights, but that's just me.

As for Strength, you can at least make some puzzles with it. That's pretty much the only positive thing I see with it. How can't a Machamp move a boulder without having a special move? It seems like the type to manage that... As for Waterfall, it can be a useful battle move, but it's way too predictable in-game. Why does it have to be a waterfall you have to climb?

Surf is perhaps the only HM that makes some sense. However, it suffers one of the problems that Fly does, how can you Surf for long periods on a Goldeen? Horsea? Luvdisc? Shelder? You'd be drowning before you'd reach anywhere. The other is more of an in-game thing, and that is the lack of really interesting pokémon in the water. It's the sea. Not just some Tentacool-filled pond. Why do you need a special move to surf with your Lapras?
However, Surfing is the only thing that really makes things different, in contrast with every other

Flash was at least removed as a HM, but I certainly don't like it. However, it's still amusing how a single Flash can brightly light up a cave with different levels. Still, that all caves aren't pitch dark is actually quite odd, cause it seems like the place to be dark.

In addition to that, the only advantage HMs (or just Surf and Waterfall) had over regular TMs were being reusable, but that's not an issue anymore (or at least in BW, we'll see if they keep it).

Am I the only one that wants a revamp of the HM system as it is today? Even for a game like pokémon, I don't think they should drain the game of actual logic. I'm sick and tired of having specific moves that add nothing to the actual gameplay except annoyance. If pokémon can set of earthquakes, create rock slides, have all sorts of psychic abilities and a slew of other abilities, why are specific moves required.
tl;dr

OBJECTION! if you are really this worried about the concept, then why even try? H/ms have been in use for ages, ever since the first games, why should a tradition change? I mean sure most are useless in battle, but then again the whole point in Pokémon is to Stratgise if you don't what the point? I'm sure you'll breeze through the game in no time be there won't that sense of achievement. TAKE THAT!

 

[Jira chan]

I'm glad they got rid of rock smash in black and white

 

[Blazaking]

Considering how little HMs are used in B/W, I think it's about time that HMs can just be done away with. Make Fly and Surf possible for Pokémon that can from the start, instead of as a move.

Also, I don't really care about stuff like Pidgey Flying or Horsea Surfing. It doesn't really matter.

 

[hurristat]

OBJECTION! if you are really this worried about the concept, then why even try? H/ms have been in use for ages, ever since the first games, why should a tradition change? I mean sure most are useless in battle, but then again the whole point in Pokémon is to Stratgise if you don't what the point? I'm sure you'll breeze through the game in no time be there won't that sense of achievement. TAKE THAT!

lolwut

1) HMs don't make the game any harder
2) "Tradition" is not a reason for things to be kept. For example, "they shouldn't have added the new box system in Gen III, there was a tradition going and they ruined the whole game!" No one in their right mind would agree with me.

It's fine to want to keep HMs around, just defend your position with real reasons :3.

 

[Nour386]

lolwut

1) HMs don't make the game any harder
2) "Tradition" is not a reason for things to be kept. For example, "they shouldn't have added the new box system in Gen III, there was a tradition going and they ruined the whole game!" No one in their right mind would agree with me.

It's fine to want to keep HMs around, just defend your position with real reasons :3.

You mean the fact that removing Hms takes away some parts of the strategic approach? and yes these are real reasons. you see if breeze through (NO H/Ms) you might feel good but there won't be that sense of achievement. Trial and error, working hard, STRATEGISING, and winning gives you a sense of achievment.

 

[Tsareena]

I don't like HMs, I find it annoying that they can't be forgotten easily and that they're so necessary. But it's just that- they're necessary. And you gotta give them that, they need someway to reward you and progress the game as you defeat gyms that you couldn't before.

Surf is one of my favorite moves, even though I don't use it much out of battle. The only one I use out of battle is Fly, and that one is a pain to waste a slot on honestly. But I guess you must make sacrifices. It would be nice if there were less of them though, such as Defog and Flash- those were obnoxious, and I'm glad they were removed in 5th gen.

 

[H-con]

You mean the fact that removing Hms takes away some parts of the strategic approach? and yes these are real reasons. you see if breeze through (NO H/Ms) you might feel good but there won't be that sense of achievement. Trial and error, working hard, STRATEGISING, and winning gives you a sense of achievment.

What? How is simply the fact that you move through an area, find an area that requires a HM, moving back to get said HM and returning gonna give you any sense of achievement, except for your patience. Cutting down a tree doesn't give me anything. Nothing of game-play value, and I doubt I'm the only one. The very concept that you have monsters with amazing powers, yet have to use a specially learned (and obtained) move to move past a simple tree (I mean WTF! Walk around it, it's not that thick. Burn it down, rip it up, crawl under it, climb over it, my god, the player character in pokémon is stupid!) is not easy to explain, and it just leads on to a game that takes less creative approaches on the matter, because using HMs sets the game on a familiar track. There's an end to where repetitive gameplay gets boring, and that's a line that's been crossed a long time ago for my part. There's no trial and error in HMs, how can you try out surfing with another move? Fly with something else? At the very least make it innate abilities, it's fucking stupid to have a bird pokémon that can fly, but not Fly...

Also, you can run pretty easily through a game without HMs. You simply don't have to use a frickin HM slave or forcing bad moves on pokémon, with my thoughts on Cut, Strength and Fly. Strength is a viable in-game battle-move sometimes, but you usually get it too late to be of any use anyways.

And you gotta give them that, they need someway to reward you and progress the game as you defeat gyms that you couldn't before.

There's better ways to reward you than a move you'll seldom use, is it not? Besides, there's so many different ways to impede your movement (though I'm not really a big fan of this in the way BW did it, I like more open RPGs, but that's just me) than HMs. Quite frankly, thinking the many ways they have already used, makes every god-damn cut-tree seem uncreative and boring.

 

[Nour386]

What? How is simply the fact that you move through an area, find an area that requires a HM, moving back to get said HM and returning gonna give you any sense of achievement, except for your patience. Cutting down a tree doesn't give me anything. Nothing of game-play value, and I doubt I'm the only one. The very concept that you have monsters with amazing powers, yet have to use a specially learned (and obtained) move to move past a simple tree (I mean WTF! Walk around it, it's not that thick. Burn it down, rip it up, crawl under it, climb over it, my god, the player character in pokémon is stupid!) is not easy to explain, and it just leads on to a game that takes less creative approaches on the matter, because using HMs sets the game on a familiar track. There's an end to where repetitive gameplay gets boring, and that's a line that's been crossed a long time ago for my part. There's no trial and error in HMs, how can you try out surfing with another move? Fly with something else? At the very least make it innate abilities, it's fucking stupid to have a bird pokémon that can fly, but not Fly...

Also, you can run pretty easily through a game without HMs. You simply don't have to use a frickin HM slave or forcing bad moves on pokémon, with my thoughts on Cut, Strength and Fly. Strength is a viable in-game battle-move sometimes, but you usually get it too late to be of any use anyways.



There's better ways to reward you than a move you'll seldom use, is it not? Besides, there's so many different ways to impede your movement (though I'm not really a big fan of this in the way BW did it, I like more open RPGs, but that's just me) than HMs. Quite frankly, thinking the many ways they have already used, makes every god-damn cut-tree seem uncreative and boring.

good point, I do agree on cut (why can't slash work just as well? they have the same battle animation) but the others (oh and rock smash can go to hell) are a way to test, oh stuff it. YOU FELL GOOD FOR BEING ABLE TO KICK ASS WITH REALLY BAD MOVES. does that make sense?

 

[hurristat]

good point, I do agree on cut (why can't slash work just as well? they have the same battle animation) but the others (oh and rock smash can go to hell) are a way to test, oh stuff it. YOU FELL GOOD FOR BEING ABLE TO KICK ASS WITH REALLY BAD MOVES. does that make sense?

Most of us use HM slaves. It's not going to change anything for most of us battle-wise.

 

[League]

HMs shouldn't be necessary for gameplay, but they shouldn't phase out HMs.

HMs should be necessary for "unnecessary exploration." If you want to fully explore Dragon Cave, you should have the all the pokemon whose capacities can help.

Otherwise, it's easy to invent ways to keep you in an area if you haven't progressed far enough yet. There is no reason that HMs have to be the means of doing so.