HMs, Any Use?

[H-con]

Now, I'm pretty fed up with HMs, mostly because a lot of them are simply silly, annoying to drag around, and in most cases, add nothing to the gameplay except pure annoyance.

The HMs that annoy me the most is Cut and Rock Smash. In most instances, they are basically the same, removing an obstacle. Why you need to use a special move to cut down a tiny bush just in order to advance is beyond me, and quite frankly is illogical and pretty stupid. Rock Smash is the same, except there's a rock in the way. I can't be the only one that has explored something and found an area that requires Cut/Rock Smash without having it with you.
Besides, it makes no sense that you can't burn the tree down, or Karate Chop a rock away. I mean, besides setting the forest ablaze...

Fly has it uses, but it still annoys me. It just makes no sense, no matter how you try to explain it, how a Pidgey can carry you from one town to another. I mean, Teleport would make more sense than Fly. Now, I'm all for having a form of rapid-transit available, but I don't think they should remove any logic from the games to achieve this. Fly in HGSS would make a perfect example of this. You can fly from Indigo Plateau to the Safari Zone, but not from Route 28 to Mt Silver. If anything, they should add a "Radius", that increases when a pokémon gets bigger, allowing for longer flights, but that's just me.

As for Strength, you can at least make some puzzles with it. That's pretty much the only positive thing I see with it. How can't a Machamp move a boulder without having a special move? It seems like the type to manage that... As for Waterfall, it can be a useful battle move, but it's way too predictable in-game. Why does it have to be a waterfall you have to climb?

Surf is perhaps the only HM that makes some sense. However, it suffers one of the problems that Fly does, how can you Surf for long periods on a Goldeen? Horsea? Luvdisc? Shelder? You'd be drowning before you'd reach anywhere. The other is more of an in-game thing, and that is the lack of really interesting pokémon in the water. It's the sea. Not just some Tentacool-filled pond. Why do you need a special move to surf with your Lapras?
However, Surfing is the only thing that really makes things different, in contrast with every other

Flash was at least removed as a HM, but I certainly don't like it. However, it's still amusing how a single Flash can brightly light up a cave with different levels. Still, that all caves aren't pitch dark is actually quite odd, cause it seems like the place to be dark.

In addition to that, the only advantage HMs (or just Surf and Waterfall) had over regular TMs were being reusable, but that's not an issue anymore (or at least in BW, we'll see if they keep it).

Am I the only one that wants a revamp of the HM system as it is today? Even for a game like pokémon, I don't think they should drain the game of actual logic. I'm sick and tired of having specific moves that add nothing to the actual gameplay except annoyance. If pokémon can set of earthquakes, create rock slides, have all sorts of psychic abilities and a slew of other abilities, why are specific moves required.
tl;dr

 

[chimera]

Cut and Rock Smash are annoying, but I'm actually kind of glad that they make the game harder.
I always imagine a Pokemon using Fly as encasing their trainer in a bubble and lifting into the sky.
Strength makes sense; it gives Pokemon the extra strength they need to move boulders.
As for Surf...
Snorlax used Surf!
I think a revamp of the HMs would be interesting, though I'm not sure if I'd want it.

 

[Travalgar]

...I don't think they should remove any logic from the games to achieve this....

The core of your self-admitted tl;dr post, this big contradiction is.

Talking about logic in Pokemon games is like pouring salt into ocean. It's pointless and completely unnecessary. I feel stupid just trying to explain this. Set yourself a logic pursuing path and you'll never reach the true enjoyment of a Pokemon game.

Every work of fiction have to incorporate some illogical element at some time in some part of them in order to create something that is able to be followed at the correct chronology intended by the author. You need something to block players from accessing a point they're not supposed to enter yet, in order to prevent a glitch. You need something to prevent the players from getting fed up and throwing their DS to the wall because they had to frikkin' walk for minutes from town to town (although that might be something of a financial potential for the company...). Et cetera.

 

[hurristat]

You need something to block players from accessing a point they're not supposed to enter yet, in order to prevent a glitch.

You can do that without an HM. Anyone remember the footprint guy from RSE?

You need something to prevent the players from getting fed up and throwing their DS to the wall because they had to frikkin' walk for minutes from town to town (although that might be something of a financial potential for the company...). Et cetera.

I agree with H-con, we need to keep Fly -- but whether or not it becomes an innate ability or stays an HM is up for debate.

 

[Ghetsis-Dennis]

What I only want to see is HMs getting buffed up to be useful moves so Surf and Waterfall aren't the only two useful ones in battle. For Example, Strength is outclassed by Body Slam because of a secondary effect, so why not give Strength a secondary effect of its own to differentiate itself. Also, Rock Smash is no longer an HM in BW.

 

[Almonds]

Why did you leave out Dive? I loved Dive as an HM and a field move XD I know it doesn't make any sense how a human can stay underwater for so long, near deep sea vents where the pressure would be so high that it could be dangerous. Well, I guess that's also another problem the Diving pokemon would take care of. I loved the concept of how there are pokemon that can be caught underwater, and the design in Gen III was pretty awesome.

It's also pretty useful as a battle move. It's a variation of Fly, although Dive is much weaker. Still, I keep Dive as a battle move because there aren't a lot of enemy pokemon actually using Surf to double damage my poke using Dive. Besides, even if they did use Surf, the double damage would be barely noticable because pretty much all the pokemon who can learn Dive are either pure or part Water-type.

I think the most useless is Whirlpool. The field move concept is good, but it's useless as a battle move... too weak...



And another laugh about Surf I used on other posts - Rampardos using Surf.

...I always imagined Rampardos getting soaked by his own attack. Owned? LOL

 

[H-con]

Talking about logic in Pokemon games is like pouring salt into ocean. It's pointless and completely unnecessary. I feel stupid just trying to explain this. Set yourself a logic pursuing path and you'll never reach the true enjoyment of a Pokemon game.

Why? Should somehow any sense of logic be flushed down the toilet just because there's monsters with amazing powers in the game? That makes even less sense. It makes no sense to have forced moves to cut down trees, smash rocks and move rocks, when quite clearly the natural abilities of these pokémon can do this no matter what you teach them. That's one of the problems with HMs as they are now, the other is simply being a nuisance and if you ask me, they hinder creativity when it comes to area design. I don't truly enjoy a pokémon game when I know that I have to cut down a stupid tree to get from A to B, and that I have to somehow get that move and waste it on some team member (HM-slave or not).

As for Fly, how about giving bigger bird pokémon (no Pidgey, Pidove etc. etc.) the ability to simply Fly from town to town (with perhaps increasing radius the bigger it is?), obviously keeping Fly as a move, but not making it necessary to Fly? Walking around would indeed get boring very fast, but as of now, it's just plain out stupid.

Also, as hurristat noted, you can very easily block areas without the use of HMs, it's used quite often in fact.

Why did you leave out Dive? I loved Dive as an HM and a field move XD I know it doesn't make any sense how a human can stay underwater for so long, near deep sea vents where the pressure would be so high that it could be dangerous. Well, I guess that's also another problem the Diving pokemon would take care of. I loved the concept of how there are pokemon that can be caught underwater, and the design in Gen III was pretty awesome.

Well, I thought of using only the HMs in gen V as examples, as they're the most relevant (though I forgot that Rock Smash isn't a HM in gen V though). Dive, Whirlpool and Defog has a lot of the problems the other HMs have. I can get the catching pokémon underwater, but if there's any HM I have a problem when it comes to logic, it's certainly Dive. Besides, the Dive areas felt mostly like a cave anyways, so I didn't find it that special.
Whirlpool, yeah, glad that's gone, that's perhaps the most crappiest HM. Defog is like Flash, you wouldn't believe a bird could blow away the fog in such a wide area, but as a field move, it makes more sense to blow away fog than cross whirlpools. Still useless as a battle move though.

Oh yeah, Dive is a HM now. How could I forget that?

 

[Ferbgor]

I think they should just abolish HMs. In B/W the only difference between TMs and HMs is that HMs cannot be forgotten. HMs are not activated by badges anymore, you almost never see a cuttable tree anymore and once you push all the strength rocks into the hole, you'll never need strength again. Dive is only useful for 1 optional sidequest. The waterways in Unova are all spanned by bridges, so Surf is only useable a few areas, which most have no need to return to after you've gone the first time. The only HM needed after you finish the game is Fly.

 

[Oswin]

Instead of removing HM's they should put more obstacles in, so that you need them.

 

[Lord Clowncrete]

Hey, why can't we get a solar car which can do everything.I mean it can cut trees with blades,then suddenly turn into a bulldozer for applying strength,float over water,etc.
All you need to do is sit in the car, rather than walk and do everything.
Finally, a solar car prevents pollution to promote eco friendly stuff.

 

[Ghetsis-Dennis]

Instead of removing HM's they should put more obstacles in, so that you need them.

Problem is, some players will have trouble reaching the Elite 4. It happened in the 4th gen games, which was why they made BW linear for easier access.

It's also pretty useful as a battle move. It's a variation of Fly, although Dive is much weaker. Still, I keep Dive as a battle move because there aren't a lot of enemy pokemon actually using Surf to double damage my poke using Dive. Besides, even if they did use Surf, the double damage would be barely noticable because pretty much all the pokemon who can learn Dive are either pure or part Water-type.

It's just as bad as Fly since your opponent will have access to switch out a Pokemon who resists Dive.

 

[Gligar13]

Use a wallhack. Boom, problem solved.

 

[Vraell]

While I don't want the journey to the Elite four to be too challenging to younger players (God Forbid) at the same time, I support far more challenges for reaching the ledgendaries in the game. In RBY, ledgendaries were rarely, if at all, mentioned. It was up to the player to find them. Now, the games seem to spoon feed players ledgendaries.

 

[Tsuness]

As an alternative to HMs specifically, why not just have pokemon have the innate ability to do certain things. Like bigger water types can swim and go up waterfalls, birds and whatnot can fly you places, bulky pokemon can move boulders, and pokemon with claws can cut trees down. To throttle use just tie them into badges like the old day. Bake some the HM moves into TMs and be done with it, or even just make HMs into TMs so that you can just learn them whenever it's convenient and kill them after you use them.

 

[TerraTF]

Surf and Waterfall are the best HMs IMO. Fly has its limited uses. Cut pairs well with Technician Persian in game, making it the strongest STAB move it can learn early in the game

 

[Kantomasta]

The only HM's i use are Surf and Fly, because the others have no real purpose anymore(6 badges and 3 hms on white ). And they are somewhat good in battle too.

 

[Koukoubean]

Well, the only ones I see an in-battle use for are Surf (for Water-types that focus on Special Attack of course), Waterfall (same as the previous one but for Attack) and Fly.

Maybe Dive could enter the list, but Waterfall is more solid, and the rest are kind of disappointing later in the game. :/

 

[Noivern]

Surf and Waterfall are useful both as a field move and as a battle move. As for others... not so much. Good thing that BW doesn't really require the usage of them most of the time... Still, it can be convenient to have some.

 

[turtlekid]

I was thinking about that cave thing! why are some caves illuminated and others arent? itd be cool if caves had lanturns in them to light the way i think. dive didn't really need to be an hm in bw i think its only for the ruins really

 

[LanguageSponge]

HMs drive me nuts - For me to be able to fly from one city to the other, without having to go back and forth to my computer all the time, I need to include a pokémon capable of learning Fly. Now, I have this thing in my head that says that if a pokémon wouldn't logically be able to learn the move, I won't teach it to them. On top of that, it's infuriating to me that I have to use up one precious move slot on one of my team to learn this HM - I am also sick of flying types, I really don't like them and would rather include something else, but I can't really, without wasting a lot of my own time walking back and forth to my PC. The other option is to teach fly to a pokémon I'd want to include in my battling team - but it'd be a real shame to have to use up a move slot on my Altaria, Dragonite or Hydreigon. Also, I hate to bring logic back into this, but as someone else has said before me, shouldn't Flying be innate for the majority, if not all, of Pokémon capable of using it?

Jack