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Music *NEW, REVISED*- The How Much Original Japanese Soundtrack/Music/BGM/OST is Kept in the Pokemon Anime Dub Thread

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Pokemon English Dub Over the Years: How Much Japanese Music was Kept in Main Series, Opening Theme Opinions, Etc. for the updated & revised list as there were notable errors on the prior one that were ameliorated, the old one from before the thread got closed back then.

Summary on Percentages of Original Japanese BGM/OST kept in the Pokemon Anime International Dubs Only (Does not include the Movies or Pikachu Shorts, That List is Below It But Also Present In the Document...presented with commentary to demarcate the changes in companies & such for your entertainment):

- 4Kids/TAJ Era -

S1: 73.3%
S2: 69%
S3: 72%
S4: 37%

AVG = 62.9% (More than half is kept, though once mid Johto hits, they slash the amount kept- I think the Johto fillers broke 4Kids & TAJ on this aspect permanently here...kidding, they likely decided to put more in house stuff for royalties by this time as 4Kids would take the exact reverse path with the Anime-- with the Movies & Pikachu Shorts simultaneously here-- see the Document above for this)


- Later 4Kids Era -

S5 (Taken in house late into the Saga, TAJ removed by Address Unown): 33%
S6: 30%
S7: 27%
S8: 20%


AVG = 27.5% (A little more than one in every four pieces is heard originally in the Original Japanese Version, and still retained, a lot better than conventional wisdom would have you believe about this Era but at the same time, S8 is kind of scary and worrisome but TPCi replicates this by S16 to be fair!)

-- Entire 4Kids Era Average: 45.1% (Close to almost half kept on average as the first 3 Seasons keeping so much and never heading south of 20% at their worst musically, led to this number) --

- Later TAJ/PUSA Era -

S9 (TAJ snags back the rights from 4Kids after TPCi cuts costs on the production & replaced the original 4Kids dub voice cast, writers, singers with the current TPCi dub staff etc known for the Pokemon USA recasting controversy): 26%
S10: 34.3%

AVG = 30.2% (Almost the same as the later 4Kids Era, three in every ten is heard originally in the Original Japanese Version, negligible difference really)


- Early TPCi/DuArt Era -

S11 (TAJ goes out of business, DuArt is given the reigns): 44.9%
S12: 47.0%
S13: 38.3%
S14: 92%
S15: 36%
S16: 20% (Isn't it funny how DuArt ended up taking the same path as 4Kids & TAJ under TPCi did by Loeffler's end here? Exact same bottomed out moment by Season 16/late BW at 20% w/Loeffler's final Season)

AVG = 46.3% (Less than the 4Kids/TAJ Era, more than the late 4Kids & late TAJ Era, but goes to the very worst of 4Kids by the last season at 20% and worrisome- Loeffler repeats History here!)


- Later TPCi/DuArt Goldfarb Era -


S17 (DuArt gets rid of John Loeffler, Ed Goldfarb takes the reigns for TPCi): 19.3%
S18: 17%
S19: 15%

AVG = 17% (Less than the entire 4Kids run & even the later TAJ run as well, yikes!!! Only a little over one and a half cues are the same as in Original Japanese, very scary!)


- Modern TPCi/Goldfarb Iyuno Group Era -

S20 (DuArt goes out of Anime dubbing in business much like 4Kids did by 2011 & TAJ did by 2008, SDI Media/Iyuno Group given the reigns by TPCi and it is bicoastal recorded nowadays): 15.1%

Lists Incomplete from Here On, But By Word of Mouth & Still Need to be Completed

S21: 9.5% (Incomplete; Halfway Through Done On Document)

S22: 12.3%
S23: <8%
S24: <8%
S25: ???%


S22 List (Update 5-19-23!):

c4Nk0PO.png


Stats for S25, I began w/the new TPCi dub James/Meowth VAs for this but have to go back earlier to get the whole thing--

JN136: 2/20 (10% kept)
JN137: 2/25 (8% kept)
JN138: 6/24 (25% kept)
JN139: 1.75/21 (8.33% kept)
JN140: 1/11 (9.1% kept)

JN141: 5/21 (31.3% kept)
JN142: 3/14 (21% kept)
JN143: 1/14 (7.1% kept)
JN144: 3/16 (18.8% kept)
JN145: 5/20 (25% kept)
JN146: 4/15 (26.6% kept)
JN147: 4.67/16 (29.3% kept)

Current Avg = 18.3%


-- Entire TPCi Era Average Run: 31.8% (Through mid Season 21, not including the rest of it through Season 25 which would bring this average lower!) --

MORE TRIVIA

Early 4Kids/TAJ kept the most of the OST on average from especially mid Kanto to the end of early Johto (they only kept as many cues roughly in EP001-EP011 as in the last Season of AG under 4Kids, Dogasu's reviews have errors there & it took until EP012 before things slowly got better: the avg. for Kanto is so high because of the rest...not EP001-EP010 which is on par with AG093-AG145).

On the other hand, TPCi w/SDI Media/Iyuno nowadays kept the least of the OST on average from XY all the way through JN (progressive decline for TPCi in the later DuArt years in how much was retained, much like later 4Kids, later TAJ, and later PUSA but none of the three ever to their credit got to the lows TPCi did with later DuArt and especially nowadays w/SDI Media).

I find it hilarious 4Kids' dub kept more of the OST as a whole if we consider all 25 dub Seasons than TPCi's dub did in their own (you would think TPCi would have kept more from the games this Series is based on, but they ordered Goldfarb & Gopal to replace more of it than Loeffler & Corallo ever did even under their own wing).
 
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I will never understand why Japanese music that 4kids kept before isn't being kept and same for the Japanese music that TPCi kept before like in diamond and pearl. Poor Arceus special
 
Good documentation! Looks like a lot of hard work and research went into this! Sadly the images in the original doc link are blurry on my end :(
Thanks, the MPM portion of JN is basically now at 15% kept on average. It's better than SM & JN slightly, but worse than OS, AG (4Kids), AG (TPCi), DP, BW, and even the first 2/3 XY so far on how much is retained (tied with Season 19). "Goldfarb's Era" as the fans have deemed it, is absolutely beyond painful IMO in more than one way, but this is the saddest part about it.

Never did I think I would get nostalgic and misty-eyed for Advanced Battle & Adventures in Unova in this particular aspect, but later TPCi have done what was unthinkable here to me.
 
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Season 14 keeping over 90% of the BGM is really so interesting to me- I remember watching the dub of that season when it first aired on Cartoon Network and being amazed at how the first 5 episodes not only kept all of the BGM but didn't fill any silence, either. I think the only dub music in those episodes was for the Who's That Pokemon? segment, which was dub-only at the time- though I'm sure they could've used the music from the JP eyecatch. Hearing dub music in episode 6 was such a letdown, and hearing how much was used in season 15 was an even bigger letdown.

I know it's pretty well-known that the reason the dub replaces music has always been about money- most international dubs use the English dub as a base so any 4Kids- or TPCi-produced music gives those companies royalties- but what has always confused me is why the amount of dub music used has fluctuated so much over the years. Why did the first three seasons keep (relatively) so much before declining in season 4? What was different about season 14's production that made them produce such little music? Why have the movies gone back and forth so much, even when the amount doesn't correspond to that television season (i.e. the Advanced Generation movies kept pretty much all of the original music while seasons 6-9 kept very little)?

I haven't kept up with the dub since XY started and only peek at a handful of episodes to see how certain scenes are handled, but it really is such a shame how little music is kept these days. I won't go into my thoughts on the dub as a whole, but it really is so sad that this is what the official English version is like. I've said it before but I really hope the Horizons dub does the show justice.
 
Season 14 keeping over 90% of the BGM is really so interesting to me- I remember watching the dub of that season when it first aired on Cartoon Network and being amazed at how the first 5 episodes not only kept all of the BGM but didn't fill any silence, either. I think the only dub music in those episodes was for the Who's That Pokemon? segment, which was dub-only at the time- though I'm sure they could've used the music from the JP eyecatch. Hearing dub music in episode 6 was such a letdown, and hearing how much was used in season 15 was an even bigger letdown.

I know it's pretty well-known that the reason the dub replaces music has always been about money- most international dubs use the English dub as a base so any 4Kids- or TPCi-produced music gives those companies royalties- but what has always confused me is why the amount of dub music used has fluctuated so much over the years. Why did the first three seasons keep (relatively) so much before declining in season 4? What was different about season 14's production that made them produce such little music? Why have the movies gone back and forth so much, even when the amount doesn't correspond to that television season (i.e. the Advanced Generation movies kept pretty much all of the original music while seasons 6-9 kept very little)?

I haven't kept up with the dub since XY started and only peek at a handful of episodes to see how certain scenes are handled, but it really is such a shame how little music is kept these days. I won't go into my thoughts on the dub as a whole, but it really is so sad that this is what the official English version is like. I've said it before but I really hope the Horizons dub does the show justice.
Believe it or not (the joke's on me, clearly), I had this actual hope back in 2011 that the current TPCi dub was finally going to live up to its reputation that it was getting on these forums, which I felt was thoroughly undeserved as "Better than 4Kids because at least it's not them lol" as early as "Fear Factor Phony" personally, but was starting to become more deserving of it by "In the Shadow of Zekrom" save Ash's "That's a fire type, nice and fiery" line from BW001 dubbed. I was shocked they left all the OST in the first 5 episodes (those episodes in Seasons 11 & 12 that kept all the OST randomly that showed up were nice & all, I get it, but I was thoroughly dismayed & appalled by the voice acting + TRio's DP era dialogue vs prior Seasons, so that outweighed it by being THAT grating for me), but the amount retained started to go back down by the end of Season 14, and then Season 15 was basically TPCi's equivalent of their 4Kids Season 4 moment where the OST kept dropped in half.

From there, we all know what happened as the BW dub went on, same path as the second half of Johto's dub really into AG/BF's dub (they were only keeping as much of the OST in Season 16 as 4Kids did in Season 8, though that's still angelic compared to the Goldfarb Era, at least).

Re: S9, I thought Battle Frontier in Season 9 was a pretty bad start (and as you mentioned, it didn't keep that much of the OST at all as it turns out, 26% is worse than 4Kids in Seasons 6 (30%) and 7 (27%) & only more than Season 8). Their floor was 20% on average in the Anime & it never got worse than that: TPCi however, has from XY all the way into Journeys/MPM.

Season 10 was basically on par with Season 5 musically, and I could at least see what the appeal was of TPCi from mid DP to early BW even if I wasn't happy about the VA & script writer change, but after that...it was a straight dive, and the dub had its absolute worst handling overall musically objectively from 2014-2017 aka XYS1-SMS1 (not only was the Anime having more dub scored music than ever before once Ed Goldfarb took over, but 4 films- FOUR- got almost completely rescored on top of it, culminating in I Choose You's dub keeping only 1 track of 55 pieces originally IIRC).

What they've been doing from 2018-2023 is basically what 4Kids/TPCi did in AG & they did in late BW, but worse, they won't rescore Movies again since M21 but they're replacing more of the OST than even 4Kids' worst in the Anime to this day, regardless.

I really, really hope they use Horizons as a chance to just reset the dub completely: 4Kids is long since defunct & TPCi don't have to continue to mimic the worst of their practices, but we'll see. I would also REALLY like them to get over this grudge/beef they've had with Veronica Taylor & the main cast members from the 4Kids Era (Rachael Lillis never came back after mid DP because they wouldn't let her post-Maylene, from what she's said at a con, and Eric Stuart much like Veronica Taylor was likely blacklisted for speaking out against TPCi's dub at the time of the change...which I find disgusting the company let so much of the additional VA talent come back, but treat the old major 3 so cruelly to this day + didn't ask a few others to return).

If Ash is just reduced to cameos in the Horizons Series at most (so far, he hasn't shown up!), it's a perfect chance to let bygones be bygones VA wise AND keep all the OST, stop the pointless censorship that's returned in the English dub since XYZ, hire someone else to do the vocal direction or have Lisa Ortiz stop the cosplay stuff they do apparently in the booth/her approach to it if she's kept in that capacity, and lastly, end the 30 second intros the dub has had since Battle Frontier, etc.

(We'll get a new writer, and I'm over the moon on that, angry it had to be via JCC's illness though sadly)

They could dub this Series the way they did everything else save Evolutions which also had a Goldfarb score (but arguably better than the ones he did for XY(Z), Sun & Moon + Journeys)...even if their VA work has always been fairly dubious for me, faithfully...will they? Time will tell, and I hope they make the right decision here.
 
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TPCi isn't obligated to bring back the old main 3 yah know...
They're not obligated to do a lot of things, but if they're willing to bring back additional 4Kids VA side talent in several roles, then maybe bringing back the core group of people that made the dub popular in the first place is the right thing to do, with a new Series? I'm just saying, especially considering how arguably unfairly the "switch," was handled.

If Lisa Ortiz, Tara Jayne, and Megan Hollingshead can come back (they gave Nurse Joy back to the latter, stuck with Morinelli/Emlyn McFarland as Cassidy meanwhile, in JN), why can't they? It doesn't strike me as fair, is all.

(The English dub has a lot of issues right now besides the VA direction & work, that said, it wouldn't solve everything but it'd be a nice start).
 
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Pokemon English Dub Over the Years: How Much Japanese Music was Kept in Main Series, Opening Theme Opinions, Etc. for the updated & revised list as there were notable errors on the prior one that were ameliorated, the old one from before the thread got closed back then.

Summary on Percentages of Original Japanese BGM/OST kept in the Pokemon Anime International Dubs Only (Does not include the Movies or Pikachu Shorts, That List is Below It But Also Present In the Document...presented with commentary to demarcate the changes in companies & such for your entertainment):

- 4Kids/TAJ Era -

S1: 73.3%
S2: 69%
S3: 72%
S4: 37%

AVG = 62.9% (More than half is kept, though once mid Johto hits, they slash the amount kept- I think the Johto fillers broke 4Kids & TAJ on this aspect permanently here...kidding, they likely decided to put more in house stuff for royalties by this time as 4Kids would take the exact reverse path with the Anime-- with the Movies & Pikachu Shorts simultaneously here-- see the Document above for this)


- Later 4Kids Era -

S5 (Taken in house late into the Saga, TAJ removed by Address Unown): 33%
S6: 30%
S7: 27%
S8: 20%


AVG = 27.5% (A little more than one in every four pieces is heard originally in the Original Japanese Version, and still retained, a lot better than conventional wisdom would have you believe about this Era but at the same time, S8 is kind of scary and worrisome but TPCi replicates this by S16 to be fair!)

-- Entire 4Kids Era Average: 45.1% (Close to almost half kept on average as the first 3 Seasons keeping so much and never heading south of 20% at their worst musically, led to this number) --

- Later TAJ/PUSA Era -

S9 (TAJ snags back the rights from 4Kids after TPCi cuts costs on the production & replaced the original 4Kids dub voice cast, writers, singers with the current TPCi dub staff etc known for the Pokemon USA recasting controversy): 26%
S10: 34.3%

AVG = 30.2% (Almost the same as the later 4Kids Era, three in every ten is heard originally in the Original Japanese Version, negligible difference really)


- Early TPCi/DuArt Era -

S11 (TAJ goes out of business, DuArt is given the reigns): 44.9%
S12: 47.0%
S13: 38.3%
S14: 92%
S15: 36%
S16: 20% (Isn't it funny how DuArt ended up taking the same path as 4Kids & TAJ under TPCi did by Loeffler's end here? Exact same bottomed out moment by Season 16/late BW at 20% w/Loeffler's final Season)

AVG = 46.3% (Less than the 4Kids/TAJ Era, more than the late 4Kids & late TAJ Era, but goes to the very worst of 4Kids by the last season at 20% and worrisome- Loeffler repeats History here!)


- Later TPCi/DuArt Goldfarb Era -


S17 (DuArt gets rid of John Loeffler, Ed Goldfarb takes the reigns for TPCi): 19%
S18: 17%
S19: 15%

AVG = 17% (Less than the entire 4Kids run & even the later TAJ run as well, yikes!!! Only a little over one and a half cues are the same as in Original Japanese, very scary!)


- Modern TPCi/Goldfarb Iyuno Group Era -

S20 (DuArt goes out of Anime dubbing in business much like 4Kids did by 2011 & TAJ did by 2008, SDI Media/Iyuno Group given the reigns by TPCi and it is bicoastal recorded nowadays): 15.1%

Lists Incomplete from Here On, But By Word of Mouth & Still Need to be Completed

S21: 9.6% (Incomplete; Halfway Through Done On Document)

S22: 12.3%
S23: <8%
S24: <8%
S25: ???%


S22 List (Update 5-19-23!):

View attachment 170496


Stats for S25, I began w/the new TPCi dub James/Meowth VAs for this but have to go back earlier to get the whole thing--

JN136: 2/20 (10% kept)
JN137: 2/25 (8% kept)
JN138: 6/24 (25% kept)
JN139: 3/21 (8.33% kept)
JN140: 1/11 (9.1% kept)

JN141: 5/21 (31.3% kept)
JN142: 3/14 (21% kept)
JN143: 1/14 (7.1% kept)
JN144: 3/16 (18.8% kept)
JN145: 5/20 (25% kept)
JN146: 4/15 (26.6% kept)
JN147: 5/16 (29.3% kept)

Current Avg = 18.3%


-- Entire TPCi Era Average Run: 31.8% (Through mid Season 21, not including the rest of it through Season 25 which would bring this average lower!) --

MORE TRIVIA

Early 4Kids/TAJ kept the most of the OST on average from especially mid Kanto to the end of early Johto (they only kept as many cues roughly in EP001-EP011 as in the last Season of AG under 4Kids, Dogasu's reviews have errors there & it took until EP012 before things slowly got better: the avg. for Kanto is so high because of the rest...not EP001-EP010 which is on par with AG093-AG145).

On the other hand, TPCi w/SDI Media/Iyuno nowadays kept the least of the OST on average from XY all the way through JN (progressive decline for TPCi in the later DuArt years in how much was retained, much like later 4Kids, later TAJ, and later PUSA but none of the three ever to their credit got to the lows TPCi did with later DuArt and especially nowadays w/SDI Media).

I find it hilarious 4Kids' dub kept more of the OST as a whole if we consider all 25 dub Seasons than TPCi's dub did in their own (you would think TPCi would have kept more from the games this Series is based on, but they ordered Goldfarb & Gopal to replace more of it than Loeffler & Corallo ever did even under their own wing).
You have most of the track numbers incorrect, look at the document again you will see completely different figures.
 
You have most of the track numbers incorrect, look at the document again you will see completely different figures.
Did you try looking again? I only saw two corrections to make, re-checking, but thanks for that: it's 19.3% instead of 19% kept on avg. in S17 (XYS01) and 9.5% in S21 (SMS02) instead of 9.6%, so will do so. The numbers at the bottom are averages & pretty much correct, to clarify, they are listed by Season and the number at the very bottom of each Season is what's kept in each one.

Also, the Document only goes through S21 for the Anime, S22 was another fan-list generated on here but by one user on Serebii (NPT) who helped out the group that made the original document & the MPM component of JN isn't in the document but listed only here to clarify.

Furthermore, the Document has the Films and Chronicles + Mega Evolution specials listed as well. Should I list those as well below, to avoid the confusion? The track numbers are correct, to clarify, they didn't count eye-catches or different OPs/EDs against the English dub's ones, and only consist of the tracks retained or not retained in the episode itself (if I did that, every single Season's average would be lower, as well).
 
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Also I'm shocked at the Battle Frontier and DP numbers cause the dub started using japanese music that 4kids stopped using back into the dub like flying PokeBall chaos and other movie OST.
 
Also I'm shocked at the Battle Frontier and DP numbers cause the dub started using japanese music that 4kids stopped using back into the dub like flying PokeBall chaos and other movie OST.
The dubs of both sagas also replaced themes that 4Kids kept in their dub like S.S. Aqua from OS Johto and Going to Latios from M05, to elaborate on that. BF replaced more of the OST than 4Kids did in the first 2/3 of AG, in fact, TPCi kept the Contest theme and the AG title card in BF that 4Kids didn’t but replaced others there and in DP that 4Kids had kept it turn.
 
Did you try looking again? I only saw two corrections to make, re-checking, but thanks for that: it's 19.3% instead of 19% kept on avg. in S17 (XYS01) and 9.5% in S21 (SMS02) instead of 9.6%, so will do so. The numbers at the bottom are averages & pretty much correct, to clarify, they are listed by Season and the number at the very bottom of each Season is what's kept in each one.

Also, the Document only goes through S21 for the Anime, S22 was another fan-list generated on here but by one user on Serebii (NPT) who helped out the group that made the original document & the MPM component of JN isn't in the document but listed only here to clarify.

Furthermore, the Document has the Films and Chronicles + Mega Evolution specials listed as well. Should I list those as well below, to avoid the confusion? The track numbers are correct, to clarify, they didn't count eye-catches or different OPs/EDs against the English dub's ones, and only consist of the tracks retained or not retained in the episode itself (if I did that, every single Season's average would be lower, as well).
No, what i am talking about are the MPM track listings as nearly all of them are wrong. There is a discord where that spreadsheet has been made and they updated it with this one which has all of the music kept up to MPM. Pokemon Music Statistics.xlsx that is the link and you will see what im talking about. There is also a handy website pocketmonsters.net where I and others have been indexing that also.
 
No, what i am talking about are the MPM track listings as nearly all of them are wrong. There is a discord where that spreadsheet has been made and they updated it with this one which has all of the music kept up to MPM. Pokemon Music Statistics.xlsx that is the link and you will see what im talking about. There is also a handy website pocketmonsters.net where I and others have been indexing that also.
Did someone update the old list? Cool! I'll take a look and see if there's any conflicting data, but this is the old document. So, according to this, nothing much changed though! It's still the same overall trend for the most part & similar numbers. I appreciate this list update! Do you mind if I start another thread with the new one?
 
Did someone update the old list? Cool! I'll take a look and see if there's any conflicting data, but this is the old document. So, according to this, nothing much changed though! It's still the same overall trend for the most part & similar numbers. I appreciate this list update! Do you mind if I start another thread with the new one?
Yeah sure you can do that and quote me in it or something.
 
Yeah sure you can do that and quote me in it or something.
Thanks! To clarify, in JN147, it's only 4.67 & not 5 because 1/3 of the eye-catch it played in got cut off as well retained, from what I saw so far. We should compare notes, this is a great list! I appreciate you sharing it!
 
Thanks! To clarify, in JN147, it's only 4.67 & not 5 because 1/3 of the eye-catch it played in got cut off as well retained, from what I saw so far. We should compare notes, this is a great list! I appreciate you sharing it!
It didnt get cut off, TPCI did what they did in JN064, they shortened and looped a theme so it doesn't go into the eyecatch so I wouldnt say that's cutting it off
 
Please note: The thread is from 9 months ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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