Rocketshipping General Discussion

[Musajirou]

Coincidence or not?

Deffo not :-D

Of course not, it's Junki (well and Yonemura, but that's only a detail xD) writing as well XD LOOKS LIKE HE'LL FINALLY DELIVER BIG TIME.

THAT KOJIRO'S CRYING PIERCED MY HEART.
Musashi: I decided. I'll live the life of love.
Kojiro: If you're trying to grab your happiness as a woman, shouldn't I give you my blessing...? *runs off crying*

This is so perfect okay. He says things like these because he knows he should care about Musashi's happiness the most in the world, but yet he's so freaking HEARTBROKEN while saying that. HE ISN'T FINE WITH MUSASHI BEING HAPPY WITHOUT HIM.

He knows he's supposed to bless her love but yet bursts into tears. WHAT DOES THAT SAY!?

It definitely doesn't look like a reaction from a friend. IT'S A REACTION OF A FRIEND WHO'S ALSO IN LOVE.
OMG KOJIRO JUST TELL HER YOU LOVE HER ALREADY.

 

[ii kanji]

What is the context of this dialogue? They don't normally have the characters narrate the 2nd preview do they?

How could I have missed the flipping preview?! :'(

 

[Musajirou]

It looks like they were separate scenes, I saw the preview only once, so I can't recall that much, but Kojiro said his line while he was watching Musashi from the bushes with Nyasu and Bakeccha. He looks all gloomy and after saying it runs off crying and Nyasu abd Bakeccha run after him as if trying to stop him or something.
Very heartbreaking scene :'(

 

[ii kanji]

It looks like they were separate scenes

Which is probably for the best. Given that we know that they cannot canonise the ship in this episode, I'd rather avoid a direct confrontation of the issue as the answer would inevitably not be one we want to hear

I have to admit, although there is a lot of promise from what we have seen so far, I don't know how they can end the episode in such a way that Musashi chooses Kojiro/TRio without it being because White rejects her :S

 

[ii kanji]

Before I say anything - if you are stalking this thread but are too afraid to post, please take this chance to post because this ship has suddenly become so exciting (and I don't wanna discuss it all on my own )!!

---

Let's cut to the chase: Kojiro.

We already knew about his reaction from the preview, and nothing which happened in the episode negated what it appeared to be:

IT'S A REACTION OF A FRIEND WHO'S ALSO IN LOVE.

If anything, it was emphasised by the fact that he alone had a flashback montage (however lame the clips were!) and that neither Nyasu nor Bakeccha had any sort of comparable reaction. It is significant that the main focus of this episode was on his relationship with Musashi which is something this show (whose focus is universally on human-pokemon relationships) has never done before.

It is also significant that the episode was written by Yonemura, an important and long-time writer of the show who has never had much to do with the Rockets, and not Takegami. It shows that this episode is not just Takegami losing the plot and writing whatever the hell he likes - this episode actually means something more.

The clincher however has to be this piece of apparently throwaway dialogue when he comes to ask the brats to help him -
Serena: Anata, kanojo no koto...?
Kojiro: Aaah.

Serena's line literally translates to something like - "You, when it comes to her [Musashi]...?" and Kojiro's aaaaahing affirms whatever she is putting forward.
Because of the sentence structure in Japanese, they have been able to let the sentence tail off without adding the verb. The sentence, if finished would equate to - "You [verb] her?"

Of course, the verb could be anything, but I have mainly (or only) heard this phrase used in the context of liking/loving something/someone. If Serena had meant to use any other verb (worry, are angry with, don't want to see .etc) why would they bother leaving the sentence unfinished? It is ambiguous for a reason and frankly, unless some of the surrounding dialogue (which I didn't understand all of) flatly contradicts this hypothesis, I am convinced that Kojiro's real feelings for Musashi are revealed in this scene.

There is a lot more to say about the episode but I don't wanna exhaust the topic so I'll leave it here for now ;-)

 

[Lylian]

Have not seen the show in a while, but I'm all for this ship.

 

[ii kanji]

That's great, thanks for posting!
Have you seen the latest Japanese episode? What did you think?

 

[Solaria]

Maaan... I need to find a place to watch this episode subbed or something. I'm dying to see it and know that the English dub will butcher it in some form.

 

[ii kanji]

Oh how I wish I could help you... ;-( If anyone else (active or passive) wants to watch the show in Japanese then they must please PM me and I'll tell them how I can't help them...........

Anyway I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts if you manage to catch the episode Solaria

 

[Lylian]

So, where do I watch subtitled show? I want to see the shippyness.

 

[Column_X]

I go to animerush.tv to watch all the recent xy episodes subbed

 

[Column_X]

I thought the Musashi/sonansu episode was awesome. I swear I watched it over 10 times. I love Kojiro's reaction to Musashi's choice to leave. I wish it was more shippy but the show has always been stingy on how much they give us on clues. I think the shippiest episodes were in the original Kanto region. After that, the animators stopped having them be so touchy and affectionate and I lost interest in the ship.
I went off topic there for a bit:
I liked Kojiro's and Serena's choice of words used in Japanese for xy63. However, watching the subbed version, it seems as if Serena was saying: "So you're saying..." As if she was inferring to Kojiro asking them for help. It didn't seem like he was talking about Musashi in that sentence. So I'm not sure if the subs are throwing me off.
Anyway, that's my take on xy63. Overall, this XY season has actually recaptured my attention back to Pokemon since I was a preteen. I really hope this season goes somewhere further with Team Rocket. I mean, they're pushing the Serena/satoshi ship so why can't they do the same for Musashi/Kojiro? They've always been a prominent duo throughout the series compared to Satoshi's group of ever changing friends. There's got to be a reason why Team Rocket's never changed partners.

 

[ii kanji]

I wish it was more shippy but the show has always been stingy on how much they give us on clues. I think the shippiest episodes were in the original Kanto region. After that, the animators stopped having them be so touchy and affectionate and I lost interest in the ship.

Although I imagine you're not the only one who is a bit disappointed that the episode was not so overtly shippy, I think we really got more than we could have hoped for. Pokemon is a children's show about the friendships between man and beast and not about romance. Any more than what was actually shown in XY 63 would have been a bit too close to canon for comfort.

I also know how you feel about Kanto because I used to feel the same. However I think all fans of the Pokemon anime and particularly Rocketshippers tend to view Kanto with rose-tinted specs. Yes, they were physically closer and the nature of the original series meant that any demonstration of how deeply they cared for each other (the shipwreck episode, Guardie & Kojiro, the girls day episode...) was paraded around ostentatiously because we didn't yet know how close they were.

BUT what are they actually saying? Even in the infamous balloon scene, they're only talking about how being in the Rocket Dan gives them freedom and that they'll carry on working together! DP 117 when the TRio breaks up and Musashi and Kojiro nearly get gored to death by that Metagross tells us in words that the pair of them hope to be together in this life and the next; and this episode told us in words that Kojiro values Musashi's happiness more than anything, and almost in words that maybe he cares about her more than he'd let on.

Which leads me nicely onto...

I mean, they're pushing the Serena/satoshi ship so why can't they do the same for Musashi/Kojiro? They've always been a prominent duo throughout the series compared to Satoshi's group of ever changing friends. There's got to be a reason why Team Rocket's never changed partners

The reason why they can't do the same for Koji/Musa is precisely because of what you wrote in bold. Serena's crush on Satoshi is guaranteed to come to nothing because Serena will leave the show at the end of this series with Satoshi likely to be none the wiser. His most important relationship is with Pikachu which is why no ship with Satoshi can ever come true.

However Musashi and Kojiro were reaffirmed IMO by that episode to be endgame, but the writers will not want that to actually come to pass until the end of their tenure on the show, because the anime cannot become bogged down by them developing a romantic relationship.

The most important point to address however is:

I liked Kojiro's and Serena's choice of words used in Japanese for xy63. However, watching the subbed version, it seems as if Serena was saying: "So you're saying..." As if she was inferring to Kojiro asking them for help. It didn't seem like he was talking about Musashi in that sentence. So I'm not sure if the subs are throwing me off.

The PM subs are taken as God's word, but they are not always 100% right because they sometimes sacrifice subtleties of meaning for easily-read English. As I said in my previous post, Serena's question doesn't translate nicely so PM have simply skirted around the issue. Serena's "kanojo" is most definitely referring to Musashi, and the sentence really does mean something like:

"So when it comes to her you're saying you...?

 

[Column_X]

Awesome! Thanks for your input!
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the series being a kid's show about the bond between people and their pokemon. I just can't help being a romantic seeing as my other favorite animes being: Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, Ouran Host Club, and Fruits Basket.
Ill just satisfy my romantic fantasies with fan fiction and doujinshis until they finally come together.

 

[Musajirou]

Beware, long post ahead.

Before I say anything - if you are stalking this thread but are too afraid to post, please take this chance to post because this ship has suddenly become so exciting (and I don't wanna discuss it all on my own )!!　

No no, the ship hasn't become exciting suddenly. It's always been exciting But you chose to leave and miss some of the super-exciting stuff that happened meanwhile

If anything, it was emphasised by the fact that he alone had a flashback montage (however lame the clips were!) and that neither Nyasu nor Bakeccha had any sort of comparable reaction. It is significant that the main focus of this episode was on his relationship with Musashi which is something this show (whose focus is universally on human-pokemon relationships) has never done before.

THIS. Even if the choice of scenes for flashback was rather poor, we should still appreciate the fact it was done at all. At least one flashback based on human-human relationships happened before though, when the original twerp trio was splitting, but it was understandable to happen, because that was a first big goodbye. But we still should appreciate it happened at all in this show based on pokemon and human relationship. Not to mention their goodbye wasn't even for real.

It is also significant that the episode was written by Yonemura, an important and long-time writer of the show who has never had much to do with the Rockets, and not Takegami. It shows that this episode is not just Takegami losing the plot and writing whatever the hell he likes - this episode actually means something more.

No, it was actually written by Yonemura AND Takegami. Junki Takegami hasn't written a Rocket ep since famous DP117. After that, for some reason all the Rockets eps were given to other writers, sometimes of random choice, like when Yonemura got to write DP153 while it was natural to think Takegami should write that since it was a follow-up to "Gaadi and Kojiro" ("Holy Matrimony"). It looked like for some reason Takegami wasn't allowed to write Rocket eps. I thought it would change after BW, but apparently didn't. Before it was just a wild theory of mine but it's slowly making more and more sense to me - something happened in the staff after DP117. Maybe they thought DP117 was too blatant and the next time Takegami gets to write a Rocket ep, he would make Musashi and Kojiro have sex or something So I guess that's why they experimented with writers at the end of DP, to pick who would be the main writer to write Rockets. Apparently, unluckily for Rocketshippers Oohashi won, since he seems to get the most Rocket eps now. Fujita and Yonemura seemed to get their share as well.
I was afraid that it's because Takegami stopped caring about writing Rockets, but he showed in some eps that weren't primarily Rockets eps (Decolora arc), that he still cares A LOT. He also showed that he's a big troll. Remember how poor the twerp goodbye in BW was? And how half of the ep was "stolen" by a hilarious Rocket plot? Yeah, that was written by Junki Takegami (this ep practically looked like some kind of revenge XD). He's still the best Rocket writer imo, not only because of Rocketshipping.

But anyway, let's get back to topic. So, Junki Takegami hasn't written a Rocket ep in 6 years. And then, Musashi ep is announced. I thought "Ok, so Rocket eps were taken away from Junki, but there's no way he lost Musashi eps too, is there?". When I learned it's written by Yonemura, you can only imagine how MAD I was. But later I discovered that Junki Takegami has his say in the script too (thank you, Newtype). BUT TWO WRITERS FOR ONE EP!? WHY? It was true that Takegami wrote the ep before this one, but still... I can't help but think that they only agreed to give him that ep if he got a babysitter which was Yonemura.

Is it some kind of conspiration? And if, what the hell does it mean for Rocketshipping's future?

The episode was still Rocketshippy, but I can tell it was toned down a bit. I wonder how the episode would be if it was written by Takegami alone? Probably too blatant xD

The clincher however has to be this piece of apparently throwaway dialogue when he comes to ask the brats to help him -
Serena: Anata, kanojo no koto...?
Kojiro: Aaah.

Serena's line literally translates to something like - "You, when it comes to her [Musashi]...?" and Kojiro's aaaaahing affirms whatever she is putting forward.
Because of the sentence structure in Japanese, they have been able to let the sentence tail off without adding the verb. The sentence, if finished would equate to - "You [verb] her?"

Of course, the verb could be anything, but I have mainly (or only) heard this phrase used in the context of liking/loving something/someone. If Serena had meant to use any other verb (worry, are angry with, don't want to see .etc) why would they bother leaving the sentence unfinished? It is ambiguous for a reason and frankly, unless some of the surrounding dialogue (which I didn't understand all of) flatly contradicts this hypothesis, I am convinced that Kojiro's real feelings for Musashi are revealed in this scene.

There is a lot more to say about the episode but I don't wanna exhaust the topic so I'll leave it here for now ;-)

That's the scene that kept me wonder the most. It was not only ambigous, it looked like thrown in there AT RANDOM. Who the hell knows, maybe Junki sneaked it in, hoping no one would notice xD And well, it worked! I haven't even noticed the first time I watched it!

Before Serena's question, Kojiro said: "For once I want to rescue Nyasu and other pokemon without asking Musashi for help". So why would Serena ask Kojiro "You... her?"? He quickly replied "Yeah..." and continued asking twerps for help. What was that Serena tried to ask? I don't really see what she could ask about, but knowing how much of a troll Junki can be, I can't help but think it's another one of his tricks. Her question could be anything, but if it's asked LIKE THIS, your first natural reaction is to think she's asking him if he loves her. We arleady know he DOES love her, but it won't be stated directly no matter what. Not until the show's end/Rockets leave the show for good at least.

I thought the Musashi/sonansu episode was awesome. I swear I watched it over 10 times. I love Kojiro's reaction to Musashi's choice to leave. I wish it was more shippy but the show has always been stingy on how much they give us on clues. I think the shippiest episodes were in the original Kanto region. After that, the animators stopped having them be so touchy and affectionate and I lost interest in the ship.

You really think that Kanto was the shippiest just because of fearhugs and stuff? I don't think so. I used to glorify Kanto, but that was AG/early DP times so from that point of view Kanto was the best we got. But now I no longer think so, and I don't want to go back to those times. They maybe be less hints nowadays, but instead they're more significant and not so shallow as in Kanto's times. I can't help but think that most of Rocketshipping hints in Kanto was used as a comic relief more than anything. Especially if there was simply no character development in Kanto and each writer was simply writing whatever they wanted without caring about it making sense. So we had Musashi and Kojiro acting "lovey-dovey" in one ep and stabbing each other in the backs in another on a REGULAR basis. Thanks for that kind of relationship.

Musashi and Kojiro's relationship really evolved through the years and survived a lot. Now their bond seems to me stronger than ever. As for XY063, I've actually wanted an ep like this to happen for years, because I was curious how would they act if Musashi met another guy and she'd fall for him. I was afraid she'd only choose to stay in TR because he'd reject her, but that wasn't the case. She actually chose her friends in TR who accept her for who she is to a newly-met crush she didn't even give her real name to. Tbh, that's the only wise choice she could make. But when you fall in love, your thinking is far from smart. People are willing to give up on everything just to be with "love of their life", but then when they wake up from the dream and see the person isn't meant for them anyway, they regret their decisions. Musashi is often considered to be not very smart, but she realized she had more important people in her life very early. She got carried away at the beginning, but could you really blame her? xD I mean, I'm still pretty angry that she hurt Kojiro so badly, but well, she had no clue. Kojiro told Nyasu that they "should show they're men from now on" (and seconds later he started crying in secret, d'awww), so yeah, Kojiro, why won't you man up finally and tell Musashi how you feel?

I went off topic there for a bit:
I liked Kojiro's and Serena's choice of words used in Japanese for xy63. However, watching the subbed version, it seems as if Serena was saying: "So you're saying..." As if she was inferring to Kojiro asking them for help. It didn't seem like he was talking about Musashi in that sentence. So I'm not sure if the subs are throwing me off.

You shouldn't always trust subs. The person who translated it, totally changed it so it would have sense. It only shows even more that what Serena said there was too confusing.

I mean, they're pushing the Serena/satoshi ship so why can't they do the same for Musashi/Kojiro? They've always been a prominent duo throughout the series compared to Satoshi's group of ever changing friends. There's got to be a reason why Team Rocket's never changed partners.

They're not pushing Serena/Satoshi's relationship because it's still in the same place as it was when they met. Serena is being naive and dilusional, Satoshi is being Satoshi. And it's gonna stay like this. And Satoshi is going to get new friends next gen as he always does. As for Musashi and Kojiro's relationship, it can't get really anywhere further than this as long as they're still in the show. But at least there's a hope for them. Or even more than a hope... expectation?

But you pointed out something interesting. Why Team Rocket never changed partners? For some reason, everyone is so used to think of them as of one being, that no one thinks of them getting other partners. The TRio can only exist and be loved by fans they way they are now. The staff thinks so as well. It was their creator, Takeshi Shudo, who "raised" them to have such a strong bond, which is respected in staff even nowadays (actually the sound directer, Masafumi Mima talked about this just recently too!). Even if there were talks about writting TR off the series, it was never writing off one of them. Either the three of them go at once, or the three of them stay. No in-betweens. Separating them would be a crime.
A horrible crime. They may write multiple "break-up" eps, but we know it would never happen for real, and these eps exist only to prove even more how inseparable they are and how strong their bond is. Nothing and no one can endanger it.

Ok, I REALLY would like to write more (I can never shut up about Rockets lol), but I think that's enough for one post xD

 

[ii kanji]

Apologies dear reader, this too may be a long post

No no, the ship hasn't become exciting suddenly. It's always been exciting But you chose to leave and miss some of the super-exciting stuff that happened meanwhile

Look don't antagonise me about this! ;-) People cannot help what they miss!! And I think that either way this is the first indisputable bit of shipping since DP 117 isnt it? I was sorry to have missed the radio and twitter, but other than Kojiro's little comment about Musashi being his eternal partner (and that fanservice-y Jessie and James drama) did it provide any shipping? The anime for sure has only picked up this series.

No, it was actually written by Yonemura AND Takegami.

Was this confirmed in the end credits?

I agree that Junki's decreased role in Rocket-life gives us pause for thought... I hope he's allowed to do them again because like you said he clearly cares :-( And he's also proven that he can write them without doing any shipping such as Dokucale's release episode. I'd be sad if he's no longer allowed to write Musashi episodes as that's his shtick. (Also lol at his trolling in the last end-of-saga-split episode! I enjoyed it, and the fan reactions, sooooooooooooooo much!!!)

I don't know about Oohashi taking over as rocket writer though...? I would say that since DP 117 there have been a real spread of writers (this series Fujita wrote 54 and Yonemura 63) and the only Rocket episode I remember Oohashi writing is Nyasu's love one after the DP GF.

What is Tomioka's role this series, does anyone know? I think I read on Dogasu's site that he's writing the Hoopa film, but as that so far looks rubbish I'm not getting my hopes up xD

That's the scene that kept me wonder the most. It was not only ambigous, it looked like thrown in there AT RANDOM. Who the hell knows, maybe Junki sneaked it in, hoping no one would notice xD

Trolololololololol I hope that's how it happened! xDDDDDD
Anyway I'm glad you had a similar interpretation of this! I was secretly really worried that I'd really badly misinterpreted it that no one else had any comment on this line

I was afraid she'd only choose to stay in TR because he'd reject her, but that wasn't the case. She actually chose her friends in TR who accept her for who she is to a newly-met crush she didn't even give her real name to.

I was afraid too, especially because of all the spiel in the summaries about her choosing between love and evil. But did you guys notice that when Musashi is sat on that hill deliberating, her monologue is something like:
"Which path would make me happy? Love... or...?"

She never specifies what the other option is! And in my mind that is resolved later in the episode by this chain of events:
1. Musashi overhears Kojiro asking for the brats to help him because he wants to do this one thing without her help.
2. She is really worried and doesn't know what to do for the best.
3. We don't exactly see what happens next but why would she tell White what has happened? The only reason is that she must think she can help Kojiro and the pokemon out by doing so.
4. White starts his love confession and Musashi "gets it" when White says the line about being worried about people who are important to you. Yes, there's an obvious element of Musashi "getting" that White loves Berry, but there may be another trajectory to this - Musashi is worried about her team mates... And that is because they are really important to her!

Therefore the choice she initially had was between love... or... love

 

[Column_X]

Wow. Long posts. You guys are really passionate about your rocketshipping. Although we probably won't get much more shippy than xy63, Im excited that the animators are giving Team Rocket some good screen time in this season, plus they look absolutely gorgeous! They are so adorable!
I'm glad the rocketshipping thread was re-awakened. By the time I found the last rocketshipping thread, it was closed and I could just read through the hundreds of pages.
Now there's a new thread I can actually take part of! I'm excited. I also made my first fanfic ever! It had to be about rocketshipping, of course! If you can, I would appreciate your reviews and/or comments! Be forewarned, it's rated M, primarily for the last chapter. Everything else prior is T rated. I wrote it a year ago but barely posted it up. +23K words...

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/11138580/1/Through-the-Fire

 

[ii kanji]

Wow. Long posts. You guys are really passionate about your rocketshipping.

I'm not sure that this is a compliment but I'll pretend that it is ;-)

Thanks for posting your fic. I have to say I'm not really into fanfics because it pains me to acknowledge that people have different headcanons from me But yours was a really easy read, which is great because most of them are either so badly written it hurts or so convoluted that it's hard to get through them! It's also nice to see the Japanese names in usage. If I had one comment for improvement it would be that Nyasu came across as quite dub-y, both the way your wrote his speech and his character. However (and I may be completely wrong in assuming this!) if you wrote this over a year ago and have maybe only got into the Japanese version in the relatively recent past then I think that's quite forgivable. I liked the first half particularly Kojiro's secret crush in light of the recent episode tee hee!

 

[Column_X]

Thanks! I realized that too while writing it. I originally wrote the English names at the beginning but switched to Japanese after watching more of the show in Xy. However, Nyasu was harder to do since I grew up with English speaking Meowth. Trying to get him in character was a bit harder. I just decided to count my loses and leave him the way he was. Blah. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read my story!

 

[ii kanji]

Badoing!

Spoiler

Let's hope if this scene doesn't make the cut (probable...) that it is replaced by something even better!!