Smogon bans and suspect tests discussion

[SharKing]

There's no doubt in my mind that Shadow Tag was responsible for putting Mega Gengar over the top. Of course, if they ban Shadow Tag as a whole, they'll be effectively banning Mega Gengar anyway, making the individual test kinda pointless. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Alexey]

Well, I did all I could

I won't bother with STag suspect test, unless one ever happens for OU or all tiers in general

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

I never really used M-Gengar, but it feels weird that a Pokémon can't be used at all in any Smogon tiers. I know there's Battle Spot and Free battles and such, but Ubers was more the banlist where you could use everything more than a tier to me.

 

[Alexey]

1) It is not a given that a Pokemon was being tested. Some were arguing that it was a specific set of Gengar (namely, Gengarite set) being tested. I don't agree with it, but still
2) It wasn't that, it was mostly "does this thing randomize the outcomes of the battles?" If something does that, it's banned from Ubers, whatever it is - this is what they did with Swagger. I think MGengar (and STag in general) does, but the majority thought that it doesn't. Oh, well

 

[TerraTF]

1) It is not a given that a Pokemon was being tested. Some were arguing that it was a specific set of Gengar (namely, Gengarite set) being tested. I don't agree with it, but still
2) It wasn't that, it was mostly "does this thing randomize the outcomes of the battles?" If something does that, it's banned from Ubers, whatever it is - this is what they did with Swagger. I think MGengar (and STag in general) does, but the majority thought that it doesn't. Oh, well

I'd be surprised if we didn't see a Shadow Tag test in OU and below soon, granted everything that has Shadow Tag in OU and below sucks.

 

[Muur]

Aegislash is stupid af imo. Just takes some clever guesses to beat it.

 

[DasManiac]

Regardless of how you feel about Shadow Tag, voting to ban it would automatically void the results of the Mega Gengar test. That would mean there's no point in doing suspect tests. If you don't get the results you like, you can hold a separate test that could void the results of the previous test. Essentially it is Gerrymandering. There should be no suspect tests on abilities as that complicates things like Mega Evolutions. They have no other abilities they can use. If they want a Suspect Test, they should just Suspect Gothitelle and Wobbufet.

 

[Alexey]

throwing crap at each other timeORAS SPECULATION TIME

So, the ORAS ladder has been up for a while
What do you guys think will happen? What could go down from Ubers (Mawile? Aegislash?) back to OU and, on the contrary, what could get banned to Ubers?

There's no doubt that Mega Salamence is getting banned, it's broken as hell and the only ones opposed to this are the people whose English vocabulary is limited to the words "ban" and "happy". I think that what could follow are suspect tests for Mega Slowbro (walls almost everything), Greninja (walled by literally one thing, AV Gyarados, and any other switch into this is a risk, as it can run any combination of Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Low Kick, HP Fire, Extrasensory, Dark Pulse, U-Turn, Spikes), Mega Lati@s (stupid power+stupid bulk+high versatility)

All the other megas I see as OU and below (for now, at least)

 

[UB-01 Kenobi]

I wouldn't get hopes up for Aegis or Maw dropping. Not that it couldn't happen, it very well might, but it's definitely not on my "likely" list, unlike Mence getting banned and Bro getting tested.

 

[Psycho Pacifist]

Baeziken come back :'-(

I don't see what particular addition constitutes Aegislash coming back. Scrappy Lopunny still gets hit by King Shield, then by the incoming Sacred Sword.

Also M-Sableye I could see a suspect. You can just stay regular until you've got up your Prankster Calm Minds, recover your damage, and mega. And after you mega status can't wear you down

 

[Zeb]

Mega Mence and Greninja are definitely going. The others we'll have to wait and see. Removing Mega Mence would give a lot of breathing room; everything is so focused on it currently that the metagame would be able to change a fair bit with it gone. Greninja is just a pest.

There's definitely a small bunch with a massive stranglehold on the tier though, which isn't good.

 

[FullMoon]

I will be really, really sad if Greninja leaves OU. I can understand why they would do that but still, being unable to use your favorite mon outside of the broken tier is heartbreaking.

 

[SharKing]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Megamence were to be quickbanned based on the destruction it's already wrought on the preliminary tier. It's just downright ridiculous.

As for Greninja, I'll say this: if you told me about a year and a half ago that Gunk Shot would be the catalyst to a Pokémon being banned to Ubers (as seems likely here), I would have laughed in your face. And yet, here we are. XD

Gen VI OU always seemed to have some sort of unhealthy element to the metagame due to the general imbalance in the Pokémon this generation, and it's not looking like ORAS will be helping that at all. There will be clear suspects even after Megamence and Greninja get the boot, mark my words.

 

[Zeb]

There will be clear suspects even after Megamence and Greninja get the boot, mark my words.

Obviously there will be more suspects, but those two leaving will remove a massive strain on the tier/teambuilding; the other potentially broken ones might not end up as bad once the metagame changes and isn't revolving around Salamence. Look at Thundurus, Charizard-X and Landorus: lots of people wanted them to get a suspect test and over time with them dealing with bigger, more 'broken' threats first, the metagame adapted to them and they didn't get tested. Could happen again here, you never know.

 

[FullMoon]

Now that I think about it, does Greninja really need to be banned? I can think of a few counters to it such as Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny, Mega Aerodactyl, Scarf Landorus-T, Scarf Garchomp, Mega Sceptile, Swift Swimmers in Rain... There's also the fact that you can use Protean in order to screw it up, such as baiting an Ice Beam by putting Garchomp against it and then switching to Scizor, allowing you to hit with a SE Bullet Punch or force a switch or also allow things like Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet to hit it neutraly.

Greninja really doesn't like priority and if something can outspeed it, it's usually in trouble. I think it might not be banned and rather end up like Hydreigon was in Gen V.

 

[Envoy]

Now that I think about it, does Greninja really need to be banned? I can think of a few counters to it such as Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny, Mega Aerodactyl, Scarf Landorus-T, Scarf Garchomp, Mega Sceptile, Swift Swimmers in Rain...

I'd say those are all checks rather than counters. Depending on Greninja's movepool, something will inevitably wall it, but the problem is that you don't know what moves it's using until it reveals it. ScarfChomp and MTile can't switch in on Ice Beam, Aerodactyl/Landorus don't like Hydro Pump (or Ice Beam in Lando's case,) and Lopunny will get hit hard by Extrasensory (on that note, so would MSaur, who can tank every other move Greninja commonly uses.)

So, if Ninja doesn't have Extrasensory MSaur and Lopunny can counter it, but how will you know whether it has that move before it's too late? Without Ice Beam, MTile, Lando, and Garchy make short work of it, but are you gonna risk switching into an Ice Beam?

Greninja has plenty of checks, but I can't think of a single straight up counter off the top of my head.

 

[FullMoon]

Can't Porygon 2 counter it? I've seen it get used in OU and not only can it trace Protean, it can take all of Greninja's moves and Recover all the damage away.

But still, isn't Greninja in a similar position to how Hydreigon was in Gen V? I wasn't very into the metagame that gen so I'm not sure.

 

[Alexey]

Can't Porygon 2 counter it? I've seen it get used in OU and not only can it trace Protean, it can take all of Greninja's moves and Recover all the damage away.

But still, isn't Greninja in a similar position to how Hydreigon was in Gen V? I wasn't very into the metagame that gen so I'm not sure.

It can, however, as it's passive, much like with Chansey (it's just that P2 isn't extremely passive like Chansey, it's just passive), Greninja can abuse the switch to set up spikes and simply switch out into something appropriate afterwards
Just because Chansey and P2 wall something doewsn't mean it isn't borked (after all, there is no way in hell a Palkia is beating a P2 or Chansey, but it doesn't mean that Palkia is not strong enough to be too powerful for OU environment)

As for Hydreigon, it's problem, afaik, was its speed. Don't quote me on that, though, as I didn't even know that Pokemon is a game franchise during most of GenV

 

[Master Mew]

and Lopunny will get hit hard by Extrasensory (on that note, so would MSaur, who can tank every other move Greninja commonly uses.)

Actually it's been my experience that Mega Venusaur can tolerate an Extrasensory and fire back with Sludge Bomb to dispatch Greninja pretty handily and still manage to bounce back consistently, MSaur is my go-to response to Greninja - but I'm running with some SpDef EVs so I might be an outlier here.

 

[Zeb]

Greninja is too versatile with its choice of moves (Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Low Kick, Hidden Power Fire, Hidden Power Grass/Grass Knot, U-turn, Spikes) and getting STAB on them all makes it hit a lot harder than its stats would imply and means it doesn't have to carry a specific 'STAB' in Water/Dark because it gets STAB on everything. You need to know which four moves it's running before you can safely switch something in without getting bopped by another move next turn, because it has a stupidly high Speed tier. And I wouldn't switch any of those mons directly into it. Although Tentacruel, P2, Empoleon (without Low Kick) and Chansey are all decent to directly switch in, but it's still too narrow a choice and means you have to keep checking it.

I think it might not be banned and rather end up like Hydreigon was in Gen V.

Nah it will be banned. Greninja is too fast and puts too much pressure on team-building. Once Mega Salamence goes, I feel pretty confident that Greninja will be next on the agenda. And as much as I love Greninja, I think it's justified.

Edit: Oh and trapping is rife on the ladder. P2, Chansey and the like are really prone to be trapped by Goth.