Summarizing the opinions on the Poison type against the Water type

[Envoy]

I know this is late and probably has nothing to do with the current conversation (which, I'll be honest, I haven't been keeping up with) but I'd just like to posit a theory (particularly to @Lord Clowncrete and @Takaki) that the proposed change in the type chart wouldn't really have all that much effect on Grass types, even Venusaur.

Most non-Poison Grass types can't learn any offensive Poison moves of note to begin with, while Grass/Poisons, such as Venusaur, already have a reliable way of dealing with most Water types with their Grass type STABs. Even those Water types that a good Giga Drain or Seed Bomb can't hit super effectively (Empoleon, Tentacruel) wouldn't be especially hindered by an added Poison weakness, as their secondary types effectively cancel out that weakness regardless.

The only major change I can see is that Venusaur now has a more reliable way of taking out Ludicolo, as if that was so hard.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it might hinder Grass types, as one of the major reasons to even consider them is to combat [bulky] Water types in the metagame semi-reliably (curse those Ice Beams.) If Water gets a nerf, then the logical assumption is that Water type usage would decline (though since it's Poison we're talking about, it would be laughable to presume Water types would all of a sudden fall into disuse, meaning they'd still be very prominent, just less so than right now.) If Water type usage declines, then Grass types have less reason to be used, therefore Grass type usage declines.

 

[Takaki]

It would allow Venasaur to run poison stab which hits dragons neutrally and poisons super effectively, leaving its only counter after a growth bring heatran.
@Grass Type Trainer;

 

[Lord Clowncrete]

I know this is late and probably has nothing to do with the current conversation (which, I'll be honest, I haven't been keeping up with) but I'd just like to posit a theory (particularly to @Lord Clowncrete and @Takaki) that the proposed change in the type chart wouldn't really have all that much effect on Grass types, even Venusaur.

Most non-Poison Grass types can't learn any offensive Poison moves of note to begin with, while Grass/Poisons, such as Venusaur, already have a reliable way of dealing with most Water types with their Grass type STABs. Even those Water types that a good Giga Drain or Seed Bomb can't hit super effectively (Empoleon, Tentacruel) wouldn't be especially hindered by an added Poison weakness, as their secondary types effectively cancel out that weakness regardless.

The only major change I can see is that Venusaur now has a more reliable way of taking out Ludicolo, as if that was so hard.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it might hinder Grass types, as one of the major reasons to even consider them is to combat [bulky] Water types in the metagame semi-reliably (curse those Ice Beams.) If Water gets a nerf, then the logical assumption is that Water type usage would decline (though since it's Poison we're talking about, it would be laughable to presume Water types would all of a sudden fall into disuse, meaning they'd still be very prominent, just less so than right now.) If Water type usage declines, then Grass types have less reason to be used, therefore Grass type usage declines.

Imo:
1) I see no reason for water to be nerfed. It is not overpowered.
2) Nerfing water does not mean that poison suddenly becomes extremely strong.
3) Most poison types are still plagued by mediocre stats.
4) Well, if poison could hit steel, by using..lets say acid attacks, it can potentially help roserade and venusaur.

 

[Oswin]

Guys, there is no need to be hostile in a debate. If you feel you can't post without being aggressive, don't post at all.

 

[Anser]

Guys, there is no need to be hostile in a debate. If you feel you can't post without being aggressive, don't post at all.

All I'm going to say is I hope the person who actually started being hostile also got an infraction like me.

Anyway, back on topic:

Maybe if Poison becomes super-effective against Water (and maybe, hopefully Fighting) in the next generation, some stronger Poison Pokémon may be introduced. There may be some mediocre Pokémon out there, but you have to learn how to use them. I've defeated several Pokémon in Random Matchups with my Arbok's Gunk Shot (it has maximum Attack). Nidoking's Earthquake (and even Poison Jab) can also deal a lot of damage when used properly.

 

[Envoy]

It would allow Venasaur to run poison stab which hits dragons neutrally and poisons super effectively, leaving its only counter after a growth bring heatran.
@Grass Type Trainer;

Sludge Bomb already is a very viable option for Venusaur as it is. The neutral coverage it provides is invaluable for a special sweeper Venusaur. The major difference would be that it could afford to run EQ over Giga Drain in order to bring down Heatran, but then it would get walled by pink blobs. Pretty much the same dilemma it currently has.

Imo:
1) I see no reason for water to be nerfed. It is not overpowered.
2) Nerfing water does not mean that poison suddenly becomes extremely strong.
3) Most poison types are still plagued by mediocre stats.
4) Well, if poison could hit steel, by using..lets say acid attacks, it can potentially help roserade and venusaur.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you misunderstood. I wasn't making an argument for or against the change in the type chart (to be honest, I don't care much one way or the other.) I was suggesting that even if the change was made, Grass types and Pokemon like Venusaur and Roserade would be largely unaffected (and if they were affected, it might not be in a positive way.)

 

[metalamor]

Just a random thought concerning a poison type Pokemon...I think Koffing/Weezing should explode when hit by fire moves...you know, noxious gasses that are extremely flammable.

 

[Anser]

Just a random thought concerning a poison type Pokemon...I think Koffing/Weezing should explode when hit by fire moves...you know, noxious gasses that are extremely flammable.

This would make a very interesting ability. It should be called 'Volatile'. "If hit by a Fire-type move, the user will automatically explode."

 

[Takaki]

That would then mean that the only things that wall Venasaur are terrible against everything else in the metagame. Super effective Sludge Bomb on water really would make it extremely good, since even the Pink Blobs gets beaten because the opponent could still opt to run Giga Drain, making Venasaur even more versatile. Venasaur is currently an A group threat and a move with increduble coverage that allows it to better switch into Politoed would likely make it S.

 

[Ghetsis-Dennis]

Just a random thought concerning a poison type Pokemon...I think Koffing/Weezing should explode when hit by fire moves...you know, noxious gasses that are extremely flammable.

Will it be more like Seldestruct/Explosion where the opponent survives, or will it be an instant OHKO? Regardless, Weezing still enjoys its Levitate ability.

 

[metalamor]

Just a random thought concerning a poison type Pokemon...I think Koffing/Weezing should explode when hit by fire moves...you know, noxious gasses that are extremely flammable.

Will it be more like Seldestruct/Explosion where the opponent survives, or will it be an instant OHKO? Regardless, Weezing still enjoys its Levitate ability.

Kind of like selfdestruct, but slightly less powerful than it and explosion. In multiple battles it hits everything. However I am still torn on whether survivors are ultimately poisoned by it.

 

[Thepiplupstory]

Yes, because poison is only se on grass, and I really wanted to try a Seviper on my team, but it didn't help. Grass already has the super common Bug, Flying, and Fire and some others. Poison types would be a lot more useful if it could be used against two types.

 

[Chiss]

That sounds really cool. It should be an ability next gen.

 

[Digifiend]

If Water gets a nerf, then the logical assumption is that Water type usage would decline (though since it's Poison we're talking about, it would be laughable to presume Water types would all of a sudden fall into disuse, meaning they'd still be very prominent, just less so than right now.) If Water type usage declines, then Grass types have less reason to be used, therefore Grass type usage declines.

Having a water type on the team is almost essential. Surf HM. 150 Pokemon can learn it, and 106 of them are water types. I can't see water usage ever declining by much.

 

[Lord Clowncrete]

If Water gets a nerf, then the logical assumption is that Water type usage would decline (though since it's Poison we're talking about, it would be laughable to presume Water types would all of a sudden fall into disuse, meaning they'd still be very prominent, just less so than right now.) If Water type usage declines, then Grass types have less reason to be used, therefore Grass type usage declines.

Having a water type on the team is almost essential. Surf HM. 150 Pokemon can learn it, and 106 of them are water types. I can't see water usage ever declining by much.

He isn't talking about ingame use.

 

[Anser]

If Water gets a nerf, then the logical assumption is that Water type usage would decline (though since it's Poison we're talking about, it would be laughable to presume Water types would all of a sudden fall into disuse, meaning they'd still be very prominent, just less so than right now.) If Water type usage declines, then Grass types have less reason to be used, therefore Grass type usage declines.

Having a water type on the team is almost essential. Surf HM. 150 Pokemon can learn it, and 106 of them are water types. I can't see water usage ever declining by much.

He isn't talking about ingame use.

I think he's talking about both ingame use and competitive use. Most Water Pokémon have Surf as one of their moves (some prefer Scald or Hydro Pump, but I think it's safe to say that Surf is still the most popular).