Worrying about the dub......

[Unregistered]

[begin spam]The gadfly thanks Neku for the kind things you said about me. I also liked "Now 50 percent shorter" better than "Paranoid."

Habunake, the gadfly is very important where he works. I'd like to think I'm important to the charities and causes I'm involved with. As far as Pokemon is concerned, I am as important and influential as you are. I am just Joe Viewer.

Now then, would somebody tell me what a "baka" is? I know it isn't something I should aspire to be.[/end spam]

It was true that Kids' WB! would announce the majority of their shows in February up until this year, and I blame the merger for that. It probably took the Kids' WB! folks a longer time to iron out a solid schedule, which is why we're only now getting scheduling information.

You'll get no argument from me about the merging of the WB and UPN screwing things up as far as announcements are concerned. However, in another thread, in response to a post I made, you admitted that only Cartoon Network made its announcement in February as expected. Not any of the major networks! My point is that the days of programmed announcements have gone.

Regardless of when things are announced, one thing to remember is that everything isn't always announced at these upfront things. Cartoon Network didn't announce Yu-Gi-Oh! GX in their 2005 upfront, yet the network still aired it. The same thing could be happening with Pokemon; CN may end up airing it even though they didn't announce it during their 2006 upfront.

Again, you'll get no argument from me. All we know so far is that Pokemon won't be on KidsWB's successor's line-up this fall. Where it will wind up is anyone's guess. So, until somebody signs a contract to air the show, there will be no announcements and everything before then is just speculation and wishful thinking. When somebody does decide to include Pokemon in its schedule, trust me, there will be lots of noise about it.

 

[Discworld Vulpix]

Gadfly, I'm afraid you're correct. I just can't decide what my opinion is on this mess. In my gut, I feel as though something is happening and Pokemon will be somewhere. The trick is justifying that belief when so much rallies against it.

It just seems to make since that CW/WB is pulling Pokemon or that Pokemon is pulling themselves from that network. With Yu-Gi-Oh gone, there's mostly WB based cartoons on the block. They benefit not only from the ratings, but also the merchandise that way. Similar to Disney, just is a smaller fashion. There almost seems to be this shift by the various networks to only run kids shows owned by that network/network's parent. Look at Nickelodeon, ABC (Disney), Cartoon Network, and I think PBS with their younger targeted block. No middle man creating numerous regulations makes things that much easier. Why run someone else's show when you can use your own.

As far as Pokemon being the one to instigate the split, there's been a lot of changes at the company itself according to various press releases and announcements we've all seen discussed elsewhere. Maybe the new group decided that the WB isn't the right fit.

I think my major concern isn't even who instigated the split. The more I think about it, the more I'm worried that networks are shifting over to hosting mostly or exclusively shows that they own. I would love to say that Pokemon could get picked up anywhere, but it only really looks like Cartoon Network would be a good fit for it. However, for those not keeping track, Cartoon Network and WB are both owned by...Time Warner. Is the decision company-wide?

I hope someone has a good argument as to why Pokemon will get picked up by any channel because I'm starting to loose my faith. Outside of the Adult Swim line up, how many shows aren’t actually owned/produced by the parent company of the network or a major group like 4Kids? I’m hoping I just have a very narrow view. Pokémon almost seems like an anomaly.

<gadfly, you can't post the same time I'm posting, it just ruins the conversation lol>

 

[Dogasu]

Now then, would somebody tell me what a "baka" is? I know it isn't something I should aspire to be.

It's the Japanese word for "idiot" (or any of its synonyms). It's also one of the most overused otaku-Japanese words ever.

You'll get no argument from me about the merging of the WB and UPN screwing things up as far as announcements are concerned. However, in another thread, in response to a post I made, you admitted that only Cartoon Network made its announcement in February as expected. Not any of the major networks! My point is that the days of programmed announcements have gone.

Well, I seem to remember that Kids' WB! and CN would announce their line-ups at about the same time of year (like within a week of each other).

Of course, it's also entirely possible that my memory's playing tricks on me.

Again, you'll get no argument from me. All we know so far is that Pokemon won't be on KidsWB's successor's line-up this fall. Where it will wind up is anyone's guess. So, until somebody signs a contract to air the show, there will be no announcements and everything before then is just speculation and wishful thinking. When somebody does decide to include Pokemon in its schedule, trust me, there will be lots of noise about it.

Maybe. Or it could just show up on the schedule. I think it was one of the .//hack shows that just suddenly appeared on CN's schedule one day without any acqusition announcement or any TV ads or anything. While it's doubtful that something like that would happen with a show as big as Pokemon, the precedent is certainly there.

 

[Discworld Vulpix]

Dogasu, I'll jump in with VH1's show "Love Monkey" was cancelled after three shows on CBS and given new life on VH1 in the same season.

 

[Tony]

I don't know If It's been said in this thread already or not because I've only read a couple of pages but here in the UK Cartoon Network braught the rights to the 8TH season of Pokémon Advanced Battle from Sky One, They also air Johto Journey & Orange League episodes

So that could very well mean that Cartoon Network in America will buy it

 

[Dogasu]

Cartoon Network UK also airs Parker Lewis Can't Lose on its Toonami block.

The two networks are really only the same in name only, so the fact that one picks up a show doesn't necessarily mean the other one will.

 

[FabuVinny]

It's not a block, it's a channel. (And the non-animated shows have only been added recently.)

Cartoon Network UK think that Johto Journeys episodes are new, which I believe is the main reason we haven't had any new Hoenn episodes in months. So be glad that they aren't the same.

 

[Nekusagi]

...You mean the first Johto season?

I'm terrified now.

But it would be nice to get some prior notice as to whether or not CN's going to air it, as I could give the grandparents advance notice then, as well as buy the blank tapes (stupid cheap parents...)

[begin spam]The gadfly thanks Neku for the kind things you said about me. I also liked "Now 50 percent shorter" better than "Paranoid."

Aw, thanks, Gadfly!

"Paranoid" is a reference to my icon. It's Marvin the Paranoid Android from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. My location is also a Hitchhiker's reference.
Although, with all the things going down in the fandom, my title could be seen as an accurate description of my feelings as of late. (ends return spam)

 

[the gadfly]

Yeah, I finally registered. The world can end now.

It just seems to make since (sense?) that CW/WB is pulling Pokemon or that Pokemon is pulling themselves from that network.

You've pretty much covered all the possible explanations with that sentence. <lol>

There almost seems to be this shift by the various networks to only run kids shows owned by that network/network's parent.

From the business viewpoint, vertical integration often makes sense. You can control the product from start to finish. Some say it helps control costs and while there is some measure of truth there, the real reason is that you control the profits and don't have to share them with anyone. Then, there are the ancillary benefits of never having to edit/modify an existing product because you've already determined from the beginning what it will be.

On the other hand, I don't think it's an appropriate business model to apply to entertainment. You have to spend a lot of money establishing the structure and you're betting it all in the belief the market is stable. As we all know, entertainment tastes are fickle and constantly changing. I don't think vertical integration has the flexibility to change fast enough for different market conditions. I think the networks, both over-the-air and cable, will learn that. I blame the recent B-school graduates who have lots of knowledge and no experience.

As far as Pokemon being the one to instigate the split, there's been a lot of changes at the company itself according to various press releases and announcements we've all seen discussed elsewhere.

I haven't seen those releases and announcements, so I can't comment on them. If you would tell me where to find them, I would appreciate it.

Meanwhile, from what I've seen so far, blame, if any can be assigned, would have to rest on the people building the new CW. They've thrown out all the existing arrangements and agreements in order to try to build a better network. There will be casualties from that process and poor PUSA, who just acquired the marketing rights for its trademark show, is left holding the bag wondering what the just the hell happened. As cruel as it may sound, that's just every day business.

I hope someone has a good argument as to why Pokemon will get picked up by any channel because I'm starting to loose my faith.

Actually, I came up with two arguments. Whether they are good enough, only time and somebody's counter-arguments will tell.

Everyone seems to believe Cartoon Network will pick up Pokemon. While CN can be a good choice, something about it bothered me. Why should Pokemon end up on cable/satellite?

Let's not forget that the CW was formed by the merger of the WB and UPN. In much of the United States, and certainly in every major television market, there will be both a WB and UPN station. One of them will need new programming when the CW begins broadcasting. If the CW doesn't want Pokemon in it's Saturday morning schedule, it isn't that far fetched to believe the jilted station will want it, especially considering the show's high ratings.

Let us not forget the CW isn't a 24/7 operation. So, what is the CW giving its TV stations? Oh, three hours of programming from 8PM to 11PM and 5 hours for Saturday morning. The stations have to figure out how to fill the remaining hours themselves. They'll fill them with news, local entertainment, sports and syndicated shows. Why not put Pokemon in there somewhere? Sure, it'll be at a new time and probably on another day, but so what? Oh, did I mention that most stations are independently owned and operated and don't have to listen to the CW about what they put in the programming schedule outside the CW blocks?

Oh yeah! PUSA just had the rug pulled out from underneath them. Now they are faced with finding an outlet for their show. I suspect they will be offering very favorable terms to anyone willing to air the show. Need I remind you they are also learning that fans aren't happy about learning there will be new VAs? They will be pretty much be giving away the show to anyone willing to broadcast it the first year.

But I'm just posting my own musings. I could be wrong.

Neku, I thought your avator was Marvin! I didn't see the movie, but I saw the previews and TV ads. God, that brings back memories! I remember listening to NPR re-broadcasts of the original BBC broadcasts back in the 70s.

 

[Trainer Lisa]

Very interesting post, the gadfly (yay! you kept that name!). Also, it's great that you decided to register.


And what I'm gonna say is kinda off-topic......

But anyway, it's amazing that the thread I started now has 5 pages! Wow!

I never expected it to get quite that many posts. That's cool. I like how this has become the dub speculation thread. ^^


And come to think of it, looking at the poll again, it seems that most people have speculated that the dub will be moving to Cartoon Network.

Even though I voted for CN as well, part of me thinks that Pokemon is definitely going to go on that channel, but another part of me has no idea which channel the show will end up on and is very confused.

Of course, I always get confused with complicated business matters, and now I am confused with both this and the whole SOVA thing.

I just want answers and solid information, basically. It's just so much to handle.

And the weird thing is that you wouldn't think so many things could be happening at once with the Pokemon anime. I mean, how much trouble could one show go through? :-(

 

[Trainer Lisa]

I am sorry for double posting, but I wanted to say something important (and just to warn everyone, this is kinda going to be a rant from me, lol).

Now I know this thread has sort of become the speculation thread for which station Pokemon will end up on. But, I would like to say something (which I don't really think needs its own thread, because this is still me 'worrying about the dub').


Okay, now that a lot of people have heard how bad some (or all, depending on your view) of the voices sound for the special, I know that some fans of the dub might already be planning to not watch Pokemon for season 9 or some might not be planning to watch it anymore at all.


But, I just wanted to try to encourage people not to do that, because if they do, then the ratings for Pokemon will fall incredibly low, and then they might have to cancel the dub. I would hate that even worse than I hate the new voices. And I'm sure other people also wouldn't want the dub to be canceled.

Anyway, I have to say that I really don't like any of the new voices (not as much as the old ones anyway), and I really despise Ash's new voice the way it is right now, somehow I feel that in my heart I could never ever stop watching my favorite show, Pokemon. I have been watching it ever since it started, and there's just no way that I could stop doing that.

And I know it will be hard for me to get used to these new voices, I may never get used to them. I might just end up tuning into Pokemon, because of 3 things: 1. It's Pokemon (lol) XD 2. The animation is awesome. 3. The storyline of the anime is awesome. 4 . The background music is also awesome.

But, anyway, even if those are the reasons why I'll be watching Pokemon, at least I'll be watching it, and I'll know what's going on just in case they *do* actually manage to get the current VAs back for season 10.

So, overall, I guess what I'm trying to see is, keep the faith, Pokemon fans! Please don't give up on the dub or the franchise in general, just because of the special and how bad the new voices were. I know most of you probably hate them (I do too), but who knows. Maybe they will improve after a few months or so of having worked with their characters? We can only hope that that happens, otherwise tuning in to watch the dub will be very hard for some people.


And now everyone can go back to discussing the mystery channel for Pokemon, if they want.

 

[Barb]

So, overall, I guess what I'm trying to see is, keep the faith, Pokemon fans! Please don't give up on the dub or the franchise in general, just because of the special and how bad the new voices were.

You could always watch it with the sound muted. I'm going to continue watching it whenever I can and I'll simply cringe when I hear Brock's voice, which is the same reaction I have when I hear Sanji's dub voice on One Piece. Thank goodness for subbed episodes.

 

[Trainer Lisa]

Yeah, I could do that.

Good point, Barb.


Although, after having watched the special again, I think most of the new voices aren't too bad now. Although, I would prefer if the new VAs at least get Ash's voice right, since he's the main character afterall. If that happens, and he sounds even just a little like his original voice, I'll be happy.

Of course, the best thing that would happen, would be for the SOVA campaign to work successfully, and that we get the original voice actors back. I would give anything for that to happen, and I really hope it does happen.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

http://www.serebiiforums.com/showpost.php?p=3166156&postcount=967

In a letter from Veronica Taylor, CyberCubed reveals why WB dropped it.

 

[Archaic]

The problem here is that both groups of actors are recieving conflicting information from PUSA and 4Kids respectively.

 

[the gadfly]

Not only are the two sides giving conflicting explanations, but I suspect the 4Kids side isn't quite revealing everything.

This is only speculation on my part--well, an educated guess really--but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that 4Kids contracts have a clause prohibiting a competitor contacting its voice actors without prior approval by 4Kids. If 4Kids turned down PUSA's request, that would explain why contract negotiations never began with the VAs.

So, why would such a exclusivity clause exist? In the golden days of Hollywood studios, it was meant to keep competitors from stealing movie stars after the studio spent time and money making them stars. Today, professional athletic contracts have the same clause for the same reason. (Another team has to get permission from the current team to talk to the athlete or coaching staff.) The clause is seen elsewhere in one form or another. In the case of the 4Kids VAs, it may be in their contracts simply because they are working on other 4Kids shows. 4Kids understandably would be upset if their VAs couldn't devote themselves to current 4Kids shows.

Of course, if such a clause did exist in the 4Kids contracts, it couldn't bind the VAs to 4Kids in perpetuity, especially for a show 4Kids was no longer involved with. Hence, a one year restriction, long enough to keep another dubbing studio from snatching away talent, but not so onerous as to be unenforceable in courts.

It's just speculation on my part and I could be totally wrong. But perhaps somebody should ask the 4Kids VAs if anything like the clause I described exists in their contracts.

 

[the gadfly]

Oh hell, sorry to double post.

My own employment contract, while it doesn't prevent other companies contacting me, requires me to inform the human resources department of all such contacts, both incoming and outgoing, and their nature.

 

[Trainer Lisa]

*copied and pasted from my post in the "New Voice Actors Discussion" thread*


Well, I'm not sure if I mentioned this already or not, but I don't care whether (as a result of all the fan commotion) Pokemon stays with Pokemon USA or it goes back to 4Kids.

The only thing I care about is getting the original voice actors back, because what they did to Ash in the special was just terrible. It didn't even seem like it was him anymore, and they completely ruined his character. I'm sure many other people can agree with me on that.


So anyway, if we succeed on getting the original voice actors back and they're working for 4Kids again, it's the same company we've always had so that's cool. But, if we get the original voice actors back, and they're working for Pokemon USA (and Taj Productions?), that's okay too.

And basically, to put it more simply, I do not care which company gets the rights to the Pokemon anime as long as the original voice actors that we've had for the past 8 seasons are working on the show again. That is the only thing that matters to me.

Oh, and hopefully, even after all of these letters/emails from the fans, Cartoon Network will still air Pokemon on their channel. Personally, I am definitely hoping that this happens, and that it happens with the original voice actors.


Because, in my opinion, both of these things could in fact ruin and destroy the dub:

1. The new voice actors that we heard in the special are kept for the next season, and even after 8, 10, or 12 episodes they don't improve much at all.

2. Because of a misunderstanding with having read the huge amount of letters/emails, Cartoon Network doesn't decide to air Pokemon, whether with the new VAs or with the original VAs (if this happens, I can officially say that the dub is doomed and is most likely going to be canceled). :-(

 

[Habunake]

Okay, who polled this?

It bumps the thread up.

 

[Trainer Lisa]

Huh?

Uh, actually, this thread's HAD a poll on it the whole time, Habunake...... O.O