Do remakes always overwrite originals?

[BettyN]

Since this topic kept on being brought up in this thread and derailing it into a huge fight, I'm giving it its own thread.

Are remakes always the most canon version of a story? Normally, I would say yes. They're the most recent and modern telling of a story, and they usually fit in better with the later games' continuity.

However, HGSS and ORAS complicate things.

Outside of Red's outfit, there isn't a single thing in HGSS that references FRLG over the original games. The many Yellow callbacks from the original GSC are still there, despite FRLG having not incorporated anything from Yellow, and the paired game ones could just as easily apply to Red and Blue as the remakes. There were never any allusions to the Sevii Islands (like there were allusions to Johto and Hoenn in FRLG), and none of the newly-added characters (such as Celio) ever appeared, let alone were mentioned. Plus, the rival's English name was still "Blue," even though that was never a preset name in any version of FRLG.

ORAS is even worse. While it isn't a direct sequel to another Generation, it's the first set of remakes to be of games on the newer side of the Great Generational Divide. It was just a Generation ago that we saw the RSE characters appear in their RSE outfits, and RSE have been referenced and acknowledged as canon for the past several Generations. Including, Emerald features that may or may not make it to ORAS, such as Wallace being a Champion and Juan's existence. Is all of that suddenly gone, now?

And, that's not even getting into Fairy Types and Megas. Dark and Steel were introduced before the Great Generational Divide, so they were fairly easy to retcon in, but not so for Fairies and Megas. XY treated both as being "newly discovered," and yet, here's ORAS, which takes place years earlier, with Fairies and Megas. How were these things known about in Hoenn, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova?

And, then, there's this tweet from Toshinobu Matsumiya that actually references RGBY, GSC, and RSE over FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS. I know, Death of the Author, and all, but if remakes were always more canon, then why would he reference the original Gen 1-3 games over their remakes?

So, are remakes still the most canon? Who knows? It isn't that cut-and-dry, however.

 

[Boshi234]

It's is more of interpretation of whether or not a game counts I for one think that all the games count in a way but there are some things that are contradictory like when where Mega Evolutions discovered and if the Dark, Steel and Fairy types are really newly discovered or they might retcon this as the Fairy types where first mistaken for Normal type Pokémon and so forth.

They might mention that the Mega Evolution's where discovered in a faraway region. On the part of Emerald version...they (the developers of the video game) might have implemented some elements from Emerald but not all them but this is merely speculation.

 

[Champion Red]

As far as I'm concerned, HGSS only referenced Yellow, because its original version, GSC referenced Yellow as well, I don't think it specifically points towards FRLG not being canon. I don't see why the Sevii Islands HAVE to be referenced, they're a minor chain of islands near Kanto, they're not necessarily well known. On the subject of Mega Evolution, its been shown that its very, very old, it could easily have been used or traveled to Kanto or Hoenn without being scientifically identified, studied and classified until Kalos.

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

For the most part so far I believe remakes are a bit more cannon than the originals. Simply because more stuff exists in remakes than originals. The steel type was "newly discovered" in GSC whereas it wasn't even mentioned in HG/SS. Plus I highly doubt pokemon such as Metagross, Klinklang, and Skarmory just spouted up in the world in the 3 years between RBG and GSC. They had to explain it in the sequals but when they got a chance to fix it they did.

 

[BettyN]

It's is more of interpretation of whether or not a game counts I for one think that all the games count in a way but there are some things that are contradictory like when where Mega Evolutions discovered and if the Dark, Steel and Fairy types are really newly discovered or they might retcon this as the Fairy types where first mistaken for Normal type Pokémon and so forth.

They might mention that the Mega Evolution's where discovered in a faraway region.

Very true. ORAS haven't come out yet, so we don't know for sure how they'll implement Fairies and Megas without breaking the timeline. However, I do know that they won't be able to do it with a simple retcon like they did Dark and Steel.

In the original GSC, Jasmine alluded to Steel being a recently-discovered type:

"Thank you for your help at the Lighthouse... But this is different. Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm Jasmine, a Gym Leader. I use the steel-type. ...Do you know about the steel-type? It's a type that was only recently discovered. ...Um... May I begin?"

In HGSS, this dialog was altered to reflect the fact that Steel was no longer a new type, having existed in RSE and FRLG (which took place before HGSS):

"Thank you for your help at the Lighthouse... But this is different. Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm Jasmine, a Gym Leader. I use the...clang! Steel type! ...Do you know about the Steel type? They are very hard, cold, sharp, and really strong! Um... I'm not lying."

Since Generation 3 was basically a reboot, they were able to just retcon Dark and Steel into having always existed. Fairies and Megas, on the other hand, are a different story, because Generation 6 isn't a reboot. XY take place at the same time as B2W2, not Gens 1/3, so the timeline isn't being reset with ORAS. They will have to explain why Fairies and Megas existed in Hoenn as much as a decade ago, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova.

On the part of Emerald version...they (the developers of the video game) might have implemented some elements from Emerald but not all them but this is merely speculation.

We do know that Steven will be the Champion, and that Wattson's ace will be Magneton, so the major NPCs will obviously be based more on Ruby/Sapphire than Emerald. This means that Wallace will probably be the Sootopolis Gym Leader. So... What about Juan? If remakes always replace originals, and Juan isn't in ORAS... Does that mean he no longer exists? That he's been retconned out? What implications does that have for his appearance in B2W2?

As far as I'm concerned, HGSS only referenced Yellow, because its original version, GSC referenced Yellow as well, I don't think it specifically points towards FRLG not being canon.

If HGSS were truly sequels to FRLG and not Yellow, then they would've removed those references just like they changed Jasmine's dialog. They would've changed Erika's ace to Vileplume, replaced Koga's Venomoth with Weezing, changed Blue's English name to Green, and completely reworked Red's team.

One idea I remember seeing on another site in regards to Red's team was that HGSS could've taken advantage of the dual-slot mode on DS Lites and had the final battle on Mt. Silver literally be whoever your character and team in FRLG was. Not only would this have made both Red and Leaf equally canon, but it would also give them teams that are completely unbiased and consistent with FRLG.

Of course, they obviously would've still had to create a "default" team for those who didn't have FRLG or a DS Lite, which could've looked something like this:

- Togekiss
- Espeon
- Snorlax
- Articuno
- Zapdos
- Moltres

No starters, because you could only get one, and that would unfairly privilege one option over another. And, Togepi was a gift exclusive to FRLG, so having Togekiss explicitly recalls those games and not the originals. As for the birds... Well, why not? It's a final battle, so it's supposed to be tough, and those birds still have lower BSTs than Lance's Dragonite Trio.

I don't see why the Sevii Islands HAVE to be referenced, they're a minor chain of islands near Kanto, they're not necessarily well known.

Because, they're the primary thing that separates FRLG from the original games. They were a significant part of FRLG's version of the Gen 1 story, so why not reference them in the direct sequels, HGSS? All they needed was a little bit of dialog, possibly even a cameo from Celio or whatnot.

On the subject of Mega Evolution, its been shown that its very, very old, it could easily have been used or traveled to Kanto or Hoenn without being scientifically identified, studied and classified until Kalos.

Nice try, but Megas have never appeared in Kanto. Just because you personally like an anime special doesn't make it game canon.

As for Hoenn, see what I told Boshi234. They'll have to explain why Megas appeared in Hoenn years before XY, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova.

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

Not necessarily. They don't "HAVE" to explain anything. Just like they never explained what happened to certain members of the E4 that were missing in HG/SS. Also, Sevii Isles weren't a major part of the story, they were the post game.

 

[Boshi234]

So...what about Juan? If remakes always replace originals, and Juan isn't in ORAS...does that mean he no longer exists? That he's been reckoned out? What implications does that have for his appearance in B2W2?

It's possible he still exists or [size=-2]maybe not[/size].If he doesn't it may imply that Black & White 2 where ''filler'' games and non-canon.

 

[BettyN]

Not necessarily. They don't "HAVE" to explain anything. Just like they never explained what happened to certain members of the E4 that were missing in HG/SS.

The existence of a whole new type and evolution mechanic is a bit of a bigger deal than a couple of missing NPC characters. While there will always be some Gameplay and Story Segregation, you can't just toss Fairies and Megas into an older story (remake, or not) and call it a day. There needs to be a very good explanation as to why these things existed in Hoenn, but not the other pre-XY regions.

Now, this wouldn't be an issue if ORAS were sequels instead of remakes, because then, they could just set the story at the same time as XY and throw Fairies and Megas in without worrying about contradicting other games. But, alas, they aren't.

Also, Sevii Isles weren't a major part of the story, they were the post game.

They were the part of FRLG that tied Gen 1's story the most into that of Gen 2, from the Rocket Executives to the disappearance of a certain Elite Four member. And, again, they are what makes FRLG distinct from Red and Blue. They sound pretty important to me, especially in regards to HGSS' story.

It's possible he still exists or [size=-2]maybe not[/size].

Only, if he makes it into ORAS. Otherwise, his existence is as shaky as that of Jessie and James, Kris, Leaf, and other characters who failed to appear in remakes/sequels, especially if we accept that remakes always overwrite originals without question.

Remember that the only reason Eusine's existence is unquestioned is because he was in HGSS. If he had stayed behind in Crystal just like Jessie and James stayed behind in Yellow, then there would be a ton of debate on whether or not he actually existed.

Suffice to say, I'll feel bad for Juan fans if he doesn't make it into ORAS. I know what it's like to have favorite characters replaced/retconned all too well. :-(

If he doesn't it may imply that Black & White 2 where ''filler'' games and non-canon.

Pretty ugly implication, isn't it? I know a lot of fans who would NOT be happy with that news.

 

[homer.homs]

ORAS is even worse. While it isn't a direct sequel to another Generation, it's the first set of remakes to be of games on the newer side of the Great Generational Divide. It was just a Generation ago that we saw the RSE characters appear in their RSE outfits, and RSE have been referenced and acknowledged as canon for the past several Generations. Including, Emerald features that may or may not make it to ORAS, such as Wallace being a Champion and Juan's existence. Is all of that suddenly gone, now?

And, that's not even getting into Fairy Types and Megas. Dark and Steel were introduced before the Great Generational Divide, so they were fairly easy to retcon in, but not so for Fairies and Megas. XY treated both as being "newly discovered," and yet, here's ORAS, which takes place years earlier, with Fairies and Megas. How were these things known about in Hoenn, but not Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova?

And, then, there's this tweet from Toshinobu Matsumiya that actually references RGBY, GSC, and RSE over FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS. I know, Death of the Author, and all, but if remakes were always more canon, then why would he reference the original Gen 1-3 games over their remakes?

So, are remakes still the most canon? Who knows? It isn't that cut-and-dry, however.

Well, we will know the answers in just few days when ORAS are available.

But I got your point. However, we will never know what is the real canon or not unless we played the game. For me, it is just a personal point of view if a story is a canon or not.

 

[BettyN]

However, we will never know what is the real canon or not unless we played the game. For me, it is just a personal point of view if a story is a canon or not.

The games' continuity is a mess, so I don't blame you for feeling that way. However, if they want to continue making more sequels (like GSC/HGSS and B2W2), then they need to establish a canon of some sort.

 

[BlackButterfree]

IMO the canon timeline is this:

Yellow (due to Red having a Pikachu and all three starters on Mt. Silver)

Crystal (HG/SS take most of their elements from Crystal, so that's fine)

Emerald

Platinum

Some fans suggest that White and White2 are the canon versions, as well as it being hinted at in those Memory Link feature things.

And considering AZ was trying to revive his Floette, and received Eternal Life, X seems more canon than Y since X deals with the same things through Xerneas.

As for the remakes...

FR/LG are pretty much self-contained. Basically the only thing they added to the canon was Sevii Rocket's pre-Johto missions, Celio, the Sevii Islands themselves and Leaf.

HG/SS were basically Crystal remakes as I stated above and aside from introducing Lyra and thus messing with our timeline, they didn't really change much of the canon.

ORAS having Fairy type is a MASSIVE retcon since RSE takes place at the same time as RGBY, AKA the beginning of the timeline but then again Dark and Steel types exist in Hoenn since the beginning (Sableye and Mawile for example) where they didn't in RGBY.

I guess Mega Evolution could've been something that was "behind the scenes" of the original games. It was always possible, but the player didn't get exposed to the option to do it? IDK, it's the same twisted logic why certain stuff happens in the third version but not in the paired ones.

But honestly, the only true issue with the current timeline is both the simultaneous presence and absence of the Fairy type in Hoenn when it was "recently discovered". Recently implies around 2 years, not around 10 years. Mega Evolution has been around since AZ's time 3,000 years ago, so I don't see why everyone's Jigglypuff are getting Rough Skin over it.

 

[Champion Red]

On the subject of the Fairy type, type's aren't nessicarily built into nature, they're just scientific classifications. Therefor, Fairy might only be 'officially' recognized in Hoenn and Kalos.

 

[ocelotlrama jaguar]

Game Freak has been screwing with the timeline a bit and making things harder to follow thanks to all these remakes. Me, I tend to have my own headcanon on how things work, and I'll take some things in remakes that I like and totally disregard other things that I am not a fan of, especially when they fix what wasn't broken to begin with. Different strokes for different folks, and that works for me.

 

[BettyN]

IMO the canon timeline is this:

Yellow (due to Red having a Pikachu and all three starters on Mt. Silver)

Crystal (HG/SS take most of their elements from Crystal, so that's fine)

Emerald

Platinum

Some fans suggest that White and White2 are the canon versions, as well as it being hinted at in those Memory Link feature things.

And considering AZ was trying to revive his Floette, and received Eternal Life, X seems more canon than Y since X deals with the same things through Xerneas.

As for the remakes...

FR/LG are pretty much self-contained. Basically the only thing they added to the canon was Sevii Rocket's pre-Johto missions, Celio, the Sevii Islands themselves and Leaf.

HG/SS were basically Crystal remakes as I stated above and aside from introducing Lyra and thus messing with our timeline, they didn't really change much of the canon.

So, basically, the originals (Third Versions for Gens 1-3, Second Versions for Gen 5) are still the main canon, while the remakes only serve to make the original stories playable on modern hardware and possibly add a few things to the story? I don't entirely disagree with you to be honest, and Toshinobu Matsumiya certainly wouldn't. While it makes sense for remakes to overwrite originals, the games, themselves, seem to say differently.

ORAS having Fairy type is a MASSIVE retcon since RSE takes place at the same time as RGBY, AKA the beginning of the timeline but then again Dark and Steel types exist in Hoenn since the beginning (Sableye and Mawile for example) where they didn't in RGBY.

I guess Mega Evolution could've been something that was "behind the scenes" of the original games. It was always possible, but the player didn't get exposed to the option to do it? IDK, it's the same twisted logic why certain stuff happens in the third version but not in the paired ones.

But honestly, the only true issue with the current timeline is both the simultaneous presence and absence of the Fairy type in Hoenn when it was "recently discovered". Recently implies around 2 years, not around 10 years. Mega Evolution has been around since AZ's time 3,000 years ago, so I don't see why everyone's Jigglypuff are getting Rough Skin over it.

To be honest, I was expecting this to be a problem as soon as I heard the first speculation about a RSE remake. Not only did RBY and GSC happen on the other side of the Great Generational Divide, but they also happened sequentially, timeline-wise, so it was pretty easy to remake them without mucking things up. RSE, on the other hand, hit the reset button and broke the sequence, making a remake *a lot* harder without doing another full-scale reboot. Especially, in a Generation that brought *huge* mythology changes in the form of Fairies and Megas. What a mess!

To be honest, unless XY were going to also hit the reset button and take place at the beginning of the timeline, I would've preferred ORAS to be sequels instead of remakes. Makes things *a lot* less complicated.

 

[Silktree]

I very much doubt that the Sevii Islands and other areas or characters that are exclusive to remakes or third versions, are supposed to be non-canon. If Game Freak chose to leave them out of a particular release, that just means that they had other priorities at the time.

I don't think of any of the games as being representative of the canon story, for the simple reason that they're all incomplete story-wise. As the player, we only get a limited perspective on the region and story. If our experience represented everything going on, that would make the Pokémon world incredibly bland. If anything, the different games should be combined together to give a fuller picture, but even that isn't enough.

But honestly, the only true issue with the current timeline is both the simultaneous presence and absence of the Fairy type in Hoenn when it was "recently discovered". Recently implies around 2 years, not around 10 years. Mega Evolution has been around since AZ's time 3,000 years ago, so I don't see why everyone's Jigglypuff are getting Rough Skin over it.

It was recently classified as its own type. That means that Fairy-type Pokémon have always been that way, but the scientists were not aware of that. Unless someone in ORAS is going to explain exactly what the Fairy type is, there is no retcon.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

I always use the remakes over the originals, sorry Yellow fans, but FR/LG are the most canon, it even shows that Lorelei stayed on Four Island to protect it. You could see Team Rocket Admin Archer launch the prelude to the HG/SS Rocket attack. Here is a quote taken from Archer, who really is an unnamed Admin with Archer's team in FR/LG:

"We will abandon this Warehouse… But don't think this is over. I won't let this be the end. I will find Giovanni. And I will resurrect Team Rocket! I will… Until then, farewell!"

Also, until FR/LG it was only speculation that Silver was Giovanni's kid, but when you beat Scientist Gideon for the Sapphire, he says this:

"What? You again? You… You're not Giovanni's kid, are you? No, that can't be right! Giovanni's kid has red hair! You don't have any reasons for bugging me. Leave me alone!"

This added evidence to support that Silver was the son of Giovanni, which was later confirmed in the Celebi event in HG/SS. So don't even start with me and say remakes aren't canon.

This is how the timeline is in my head.

Emerald/FR/LG

Platinum/HG/SS

B/W

B2/W2

X/Y

Now, where ORAS fits in is interesting, I was seriously hoping it would be a sequel so that we WOULDN'T have this issue, but it looks more like a remake, however I'm going to try my best to treat it as a sequel in my mind.

Also, it's interesting to note that in B2/W2 there is a couple consisting of a former Team Magma and former Team Aqua Grunt, which suggests that the teams had been taken down by then, which means ORAS couldn't happen at the same time or after X and Y.

 

[BettyN]

You could see Team Rocket Admin Archer launch the prelude to the HG/SS Rocket attack. Here is a quote taken from Archer, who really is an unnamed Admin with Archer's team in FR/LG:

"We will abandon this Warehouse… But don't think this is over. I won't let this be the end. I will find Giovanni. And I will resurrect Team Rocket! I will… Until then, farewell!"

That was mostly just a callback to the original GSC. Archer's dialog in the original Gen 2 already confirmed that he resurrected Team Rocket in hopes of finding Giovanni:

"Oh? You managed to get this far? You must be quite the trainer. We intend to take over this Radio Station and announce our comeback. That should bring our boss Giovanni back from his solo training. We are going to regain our former glory. I won't allow you to interfere with our plans."

"No! Forgive me, Giovanni!"

"How could this be? Our dreams have come to naught. I wasn't up to the task after all. Like Giovanni did before me, I will disband Team Rocket here today. Farewell."

If FRLG are the true canon, then HGSS did a very poor job of acknowledging them. We already know about Archer resurrecting Team Rocket, but what about Team Rocket's operations in the Sevii Islands, from when he was planning all of that out? Why couldn't Archer (or someone else) have mentioned being defeated by a similar-looking kid down there 3 years ago? That would've, then, confirmed that HGSS were using FRLG as canon instead of the original games.

And, again, I repeat my earlier thoughts on how the Final Battle should've looked if they wanted to truly be consistent with FRLG:

One idea I remember seeing on another site in regards to Red's team was that HGSS could've taken advantage of the dual-slot mode on DS Lites and had the final battle on Mt. Silver literally be whoever your character and team in FRLG was. Not only would this have made both Red and Leaf equally canon, but it would also give them teams that are completely unbiased and consistent with FRLG.

Of course, they obviously would've still had to create a "default" team for those who didn't have FRLG or a DS Lite, which could've looked something like this:

- Togekiss
- Espeon
- Snorlax
- Articuno
- Zapdos
- Moltres

No starters, because you could only get one, and that would unfairly privilege one option over another. And, Togepi was a gift exclusive to FRLG, so having Togekiss explicitly recalls those games and not the originals. As for the birds... Well, why not? It's a final battle, so it's supposed to be tough, and those birds still have lower BSTs than Lance's Dragonite Trio.

To add onto that, I would have had the "default" Player Character be Red in HeartGold and Leaf in SoulSilver, so they're both equally acknowledged and one isn't favored over the other. Which fits in perfectly with FRLG.

Now, where ORAS fits in is interesting, I was seriously hoping it would be a sequel so that we WOULDN'T have this issue, but it looks more like a remake, however I'm going to try my best to treat it as a sequel in my mind.

Also, it's interesting to note that in B2/W2 there is a couple consisting of a former Team Magma and former Team Aqua Grunt, which suggests that the teams had been taken down by then, which means ORAS couldn't happen at the same time or after X and Y.

Unfortunately, ORAS are remakes, not sequels, so based on your earlier thoughts, they DO overwrite Emerald. Can't pick and choose. That means, for example, if Juan fails to appear in ORAS, then his existence is just as sketchy as the likes of Jessie, James, Kris, and Leaf, and the canonicity of the PWT and possibly, B2W2 themselves will be called into question.

In other words, the timeline is screwed. :dizzy:

 

[Champion Red]

Yeah, getting ORAS to fit into the timeline right is gonna be fun My timeline is the same as Empoleon's, so I won't repeat it.

 

[BettyN]

Yeah, getting ORAS to fit into the timeline right is gonna be fun My timeline is the same as Empoleon's, so I won't repeat it.

This is a big reason why I wish the remakes had just ended with HGSS, and ORAS were sequels, instead. The first two Gens were sequential and happened on the other side of the Great Generational Divide, so remaking them was fairly easy without mucking up the timeline.

Gen 3, on the other hand, not only hit the reset button and had RSE taking place before GSC, but it also included its own pair of remakes (which will have to be addressed, like it or not). There's just no way to remake any of that without hitting the reset button again and having XY coincide with Gens 1 and 3, which I know a lot of fans probably wouldn't want.

 

[Champion Red]

Since a lot of us here are obsessed with figuring out how all the lore and storylines fit together (Myself included ) we should address the timeline problems ORAS makes and try to sort them out. So far here's the big two things:

*Fairy typing
*Mega Evolution

On the subject of typing, IMO the Fairy type (Similar to Dark and Steel types in R/B/G/Y and FR/LG), simply weren't scientifically recognized at the time, the Fairy type still existed, but it wasn't recognized as a valid type until X/Y (Unova in B2/W2 likely just didn't switch over to the new system immediately). And new types are included in remakes (Like Dark and Steel in FR/LG, and Fairy in OR/AS), just for mechanical and gameplay reasons.

For Mega Evolution, it seems like it originates from Rayquaza, or at least Rayquaza and the Hoenn region are very important to it. We already know Mega Evolution has existed for thousands of years, perhaps the stones created by the Ultimate Weapon (That's how the story went, right?) were simply NEW mega stones, and as such only work in Kalos for some reason (Hence being unable to transfer them to OR/AS, and Sycamore's dialogue). Therefor, PC and Steven could be investigating the legends of Mega Evolution in OR/AS, without necessarily contradicting the timeline, since Mega Evolution hasn't been officially recognized/studied yet, and is just an ancient myth.