Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

[Dogasu]

What I found the most interesting from this latest batch, was the revelation from Shudo's blog that there was originally going to be an episode where Satoshi met Mewtwo. I wonder how far in production that episode got before it got scrapped.

The blog states that he was supposed to write the episode but didn't get to, which in turn tells us that the episode was scrapped before it even got to the script stage.

Is Dogasu... single?

I am not.

By the way, a discussion in page 133 of this topic says that the first movie as aired on July 8, 1999 is different compared to the version that aired on March 31, 2000, as the latter has additional CGI editing. I guess the only difference is in "The Birth of Mewtwo" and the rest of the movie is the same, right? And what footage is shown in the first VHS release of the Kanzenban (November 12, 1999): is it the same as the 1999 tv airing, or is it the one used in the 2000 tv airing and that would eventually become the definitive version?

From what I've gathered the 1999 airing had less of the CG completed than the 2000 airing. That 1999 airing's also probably where the version of "The Birth of Mewtwo" that's on the North American "Mewtwo Returns" DVD came from.

I don't think Japan was trying to imitate Warner Bros./4Kids with the soundtrack thing because this film came out in summer before the first dub film premiered; I think they were just doing their own thing.

I did overlook that. On the other hand, production of the soundtrack for the first movie would most likely have been done by that point so Japan probably knew that 4Kids was getting a bunch of pop stars for their version of the movie's soundtrack.

I imagine it was also part of the "softening up" the producers of the movie were trying to do for the second movie. Mewtwo Strikes Back was a really dark movie with a haunting theme song and so the comparitively lighter Revelation Lugia got a happier, more pop-y theme song to match.

Always wondered why Pokemon is so devoid of image songs when it seems like every other anime on earth has them in droves.

Well it kind of has a bunch if you consider a lot of the Jouto ending themes. Takeshi's Paradise is very much a Takeshi image song with the only difference being that it was actually used in the TV series. Same with Maemuki Rocket-Dan, Nyasu no Uta, Type: Wild, etc.

 

[Abcd2015]

By the way, a discussion in page 133 of this topic says that the first movie as aired on July 8, 1999 is different compared to the version that aired on March 31, 2000, as the latter has additional CGI editing. I guess the only difference is in "The Birth of Mewtwo" and the rest of the movie is the same, right? And what footage is shown in the first VHS release of the Kanzenban (November 12, 1999): is it the same as the 1999 tv airing, or is it the one used in the 2000 tv airing and that would eventually become the definitive version?

From what I've gathered the 1999 airing had less of the CG completed than the 2000 airing. That 1999 airing's also probably where the version of "The Birth of Mewtwo" that's on the North American "Mewtwo Returns" DVD came from.

So it wasn't just an update of "The Bith of Mewtwo", which means that the core of the movie exists in 3 versions: virtually no CGI (theatrical, February 1999 VHS, 1999 Laser Disc), some CGI (1999 airing), further CGI (2000 airing and subsequent airings/releases). Is the second version available somewhere? And is the second or the third version that is included in the November 1999 VHS release?

Still, I find strange that the dub uses the updated footage for the first two minutes of Mewtwo's Origin as added to the first movie, and the original footage in the whole short as included in the Mewtwo Returns DVD.

Another thing that apparently hasn't been solved yet is whether the dub of Mewtwo's Origin was created together with the first movie dub and then removed, or if it was dubbed later. I see that there are some edit wars on this matter on Bulbapedia, with voice actors for Mewtwo and Dr. Fuji often changed from Phillip Bartlett/Jay Goede to Maddie Blaustein, to Eric Stuart, back and forth. The current consensus seems to be that both Mewtwo and Fuji were voiced by Phillip Bartlett in the short: this may imply the short was dubbed at the same time, since Bartlett is not part of the regular cast, but we know he was recalled to do voice Mewtwo in Pokémon Live!. A clue to the fact that it was dubbed together with the first movie is that the dub of first two minutes wasshown as early as March 21, 2000, while the dub of whole thing was shown (in Japan) as early as June 23, 2000. There is also the fact that dub Mewtwo says "Where...am I? This...this is not the same. Was everything before...just a dream? Why...?", a possible reference to the cut scenes. On the other hand, the shortest version of the dub starts with the narrator saying "Life: the great miracle and the great mystery" etc. In the audio commentary we learn this dub-only speech was added because Norman J. Grossfeld and Michael Haigney didn't like a silent beginning. This seems to contradict what I said before, but maybe it was a late addction after the extra scenes at the beginning were cut. What are the opinions of you guys on this matter?

One last thing: Dogasu, do you have any old Japanese newspaper articles that review these movies? The Wikipedia pages only have reviews from American newspapers and such, which is not the best thing since the dub movies are often different from the original ones.

 

[SammyW27]

Yeeee--eesshh!

What is your malfunction, 4Kids?!

I knew the dub of Movie 2 had some difference, but...DAMN!

 

[MRStealth64]

Just finished reading the comparison. It seems that with every new one I read, 4Kids and TPci just look worse and worse. I mean when it comes to taking out the scientific explanations in this movie, and actually getting the Japanese animators to create new scenes in the Celebi movie to cram a major plot point down the throats of the audience, there's really no getting around the fact that they are dumbing things down. I hope that this proves to some people that 4Kids did a lot more than call rice balls "donuts" when they rewrote the dub scripts. I can't help but wonder what things would have been like if a competent company had gotten the rights to dub Pokemon.

 

[MizuTaipu]

Ugh, reading that comparison reminded me that 4Kids had that Pokeshipping slant back in the day.

 

[garrison-san]

Hey, remember that time when sticking a "2000" on the end of something was considered the epitome of flash? Here it was obviously intended as wordplay on the fact that this was the second movie, combined with efforts to capitalise upon the new millennium fever, but now it just comes off as kind of an awkward title. It's entirely irrelevant to anything within the movie/Pokemon universe itself, and I'm pretty sure that most people would have been over the whole new millennium thing anyway by July, when it was released in the US. They most certainly were when it was released in Europe, in late December, when there was only about a week or two left of 2000 to go.

I remember picking up on the "krabbies" line and assuming, at the time, that it was just my filthy adolescent mind at work. But nope, turns out that everybody else interpreted it in the exactly same way. It is extremely weird and out of place, but it was surely deliberate.

 

[Nicolas721]

Nice comparison, thank you for posting it. My two biggest doubts about the dub of the movie have been finally solved:

Are the PokeShipping hints a theme in the Japanese version? Yes, and a few lines are surprisingly accurate.
Is Ash "The Chosen One" in the japanese version? Yes and No. The dub goes "Ash's name is in the legend->He must save the world" while the original goes "Ash must save the world because he's there".

It's nice to see that your thoughts were more positive (Not that I would be angry if someone disliked the movie).

I think a combinacion of the original and the dub's explanation of Professor Oak would have been the best thing, because "The entire world will be flooded" is easier to undersand than "There's a current that links all life beings and musn't be disrupted" (Which is one of the reasons why I didn't liked Movie 14 much).

Despite the fact that the dub movie lacks an english vocal song, "The legend comes to life" takes Brother My Brother's place in the CD, just like Dance of the Bellosom takes Catch Me if you can's place.

Now, onto Movie 18...I doubt it will perform bad, as Hoopa is easier to like than Diancie and there are many unanswered questions about Hoopa Unbound and Arceus. However, the producers should have gone with a less generic (on paper) Pikachu short like last year.

 

[KelvinV]

Dogasu, do you have watched non-Japanese/English dubs of Pokemon?

 

[Teletoon]

"They've already used ALL LEGENDARIES EVARRR!!!!!1!!1!...what else can they do to top that?"

...Seriously?

 

[Silktree]

He has a point marketing-wise. But I'd say that the movies need to tone down on legendary battles, because it's clear that this formula isn't working anymore.

 

[Gabo2oo]

...But how does one expect that formula to work, if the lately legendary battles are barely battles anyway?

 

[SammyW27]

"They've already used ALL LEGENDARIES EVARRR!!!!!1!!1!...what else can they do to top that?"

Instead of trying to "top" it, they need to make it "better".

For starters, they need to actually make the movie instead of promoting it.

Like with this one; it's like they were SO busy hyping the big Legendary fight they forgot to make it GOOD >_<

Don't make a big deal about having a bunch of Legendary Pokémon in one story if you're not going to make good use of them...

I imagine it'll be too little, too late for Movie 19, but they REALLY need to mix things up from "Big Legendary Pokémon fight, Little Legendary Pokémon act cute.".

Oh, and enough with the telepathically talking Pokémon already! It's TOTALLY overused these days and just doesn't mean as much as it used to! (the Diancie movie even stooped low enough to have a commoner talk telepathically! )

 

[Idon'tcare]

Oh, and enough with the telepathically talking Pokémon already! It's TOTALLY overused these days and just doesn't mean as much as it used to! (the Diancie movie even stooped low enough to have a commoner talk telepathically! )

Hoopa and Super Hoopa weren't using telepathy to speak human speech as their mouths moved when they spoke.

Pokémon who use telepathy to communicate with humans speak with their mind and so their mouths never move.

It's surprising some people have been mistaken, when we should all know moving mouths= it's actually speaking.

 

[SammyW27]

^ Eh, it kinda looked like a middle ground to me; like their mouth were moving while being telepathic.

Though at least the Hoopa movie gets credit for just letting them talk and not a bunch (or worse, ALL :scared of the Legendaries.

And welcome back, Don! arty:
Longtime no see!

 

[Dogasu]

So it wasn't just an update of "The Bith of Mewtwo", which means that the core of the movie exists in 3 versions: virtually no CGI (theatrical, February 1999 VHS, 1999 Laser Disc), some CGI (1999 airing), further CGI (2000 airing and subsequent airings/releases).

Apparently, yes.

Is the second version available somewhere? And is the second or the third version that is included in the November 1999 VHS release?

The second version hasn't been made available anywhere, as far as I know.

The 1999 VHS release is the third version.

Another thing that apparently hasn't been solved yet is whether the dub of Mewtwo's Origin was created together with the first movie dub and then removed, or if it was dubbed later.

All evidence points to it being dubbed together with the movie.

Pokémon The First Movie was released in theaters in the U.S. on November 10th, 1999.

In Japan, the animated adaptation was released on DVD on June 23rd, 2000. This bilingual DVD contains the full English dub of the animated short, meaning that an English version of "The Birth of Mewtwo" existed at least as early as that. Did 4Kids dub the short and then decide to cut it at the last minute? It's possible. Maybe 4Kids thought kids wouldn't want to sit through so much backstory before getting to see Ash and his friends, and maybe they were worried that the content of the story was too dark for them to retain the movie's G rating.

The full, uncut version of "The Birth of Mewtwo" was finally released in the U.S. on December 4th, 2001 with the release of "Mewtwo Returns" on DVD, about a year and a half after the English dub was released in Japan.

...which is pretty much what you said, but yeah. I don't really see why anyone would think it was dubbed later.

One last thing: Dogasu, do you have any old Japanese newspaper articles that review these movies?

Japanese newspapers don't really review movies the way American newspapers do so unfortunately I do not.

Dogasu, do you have watched non-Japanese/English dubs of Pokemon?

Nope! I have enough on my hands with just the Japanese and English versions.

...Seriously?

Well, fine, not all the legendaries, but still. They had like...ten?

Like with this one; it's like they were SO busy hyping the big Legendary fight they forgot to make it GOOD >_<

Here's the thing.

It's so easy to just say that the movies would do better if they'd just make them GOOD.

But, aside from the fact that the Pokemon fandom is so vast and so varied that trying to please everyone is a completely futile exercise, you also have to consider that having a good movie doesn't necessarily equal better box office performance.

There are a lot of shit movies that make a ton of money at the box office.
And there are a lot of excellent films that don't even break even.

The Archdjinn of the Rings, Hoopa could have been the best movie ever and I have the feeling it still wouldn't have done much better box office-wise. I think there's a sense of fatigue with these films among the general public and it's getting harder for people to get excited about yet another battle between legendaries year after year after year.

But here's the thing though; there's not much they can do. There are way too many cooks in the kitchen at this point and any of the things Toho could do to help alleviate people's fatigue (having the movies come out less often, featuring something other than a legendary pokemon fighting each other, *not* shoehorning elements from the next games into an already bloated story) just aren't an option at this point.

And that's because the film's sponsors are the ones really calling the shots.

- Toy Company X wanted to sell legendary pokemon merchandise but thought that having any of them lose a battle would negatively impact sales (who wants to buy toys based on a LOSER?). So they demand that all of the battles end in stalemates.
- Voice Actor Y's agent didn't think their client's character had enough lines so a character is given a bigger role than what was in the original script.
- Event Planner Z wants to throw a specific event featuring this group of pokemon so find a way to fit that into the film, OK?
- Record Label A wants the Pikachu short to promote their band more so center the entire thing around their music.
- Mobile Game Developer B wants to have a game to sell in July so figure out a way to fit that into the movie as well.
- Foreign Country C's tourist industry wants their country to be featured in a Pokemon movie so please base your film's setting on us. Also be sure to heavily feature our country on your official site's blog.

etc.

I mean these are all hypothetical situations and have in no way been confirmed as being the case but it's not hard to imagine that at least some of them are factors at work. It's bullshit but it's also the way things are.

I don't know what the solution is. I don't know how they can revitalize the franchise with all the restrictions put on them by their sponsors and I don't know if the movies will ever get better. I just know that "make them better" isn't as simple or effective as people seem to think.

 

[MizuTaipu]

So Yadoking's Day aired in the special just to fill up time or something? Also, the fact that they had to record him at the place where he was working just for this small, random short shows dedication.

 

[Garren]

I don't think "All Legendaries Ever!" has totally hit the peak and there's nowhere else to go.

I know like the Kamen Rider series did the "EVERY RIDER EVER!" multiple movies, yet recently I feel they've been a bit better received because while still keeping that element to them in the Super Hero Taisen films, they've also begun to get a bit better at including more focus on individual characters as well. Like the first Super Hero Taisen was a bloated mess with very weak appearances by the current casts and such, as was the second one. The recent ones I think have been received a bit better (although I don't know the numbers) because apart from dropping Sentai mostly which helped cut the focus down a bit, they also had more substantial things for classic characters to do and have gotten better at bringing back the original actors. I think Pokemon stepping into this newer "let's go with all Legendaries!" theme might pay-off a bit if they refine it a bit more, and make the movies more action-packed as opposed to how recent movies have felt a bit tame and slow.

But I do think it's odd how people think the Pokemon Movies doing not as well at the box-office is instantly indicative of them being an instant disappointment or weaker than previous films without even seeing them (I mean your opinion on that may vary, but some of the responses I've seen for the Hoopa film were positive as some people liked how it was set-up like a Kaiju film in the vein of Godzilla), when I think you hit the nail on the head that nothing can stay fresh after so many years. Yokai Watch, as big as it is right now, will no doubt suffer the same issue in a decade when the next big 'Mon craze comes through. But that doesn't mean the series are completely irredeemable, they just naturally can't stay as unique and innovative as they were in the beginning.

 

[SammyW27]

@ Dogasu

Those are really great points...but it still feels off they'd make SUCH a big deal about so many Legendaries going at it and then it be kinda underwhelming. If you're going to hype a certain aspect of a film, then that's a part you need to sure is good as it can be. Though to be fair, plenty other movies and TV shows are guilty of same thing...
And yeah, the heavy hand of corporate meddling is always a pain the ass.

Also, nice job on the new comparison for Pikachu's Rescue Adventure. Almost makes one wonder if 4Kids WANTED non-fans to hate Pokémon... :dead:

PS: Will you do comparisons for the Baby Lugia 3-parter (and maybe the episodes foreshadowing it) as part of Lugia Lundes

 

[Dogasu]

Those are really great points...but it still feels off they'd make SUCH a big deal about so many Legendaries going at it and then it be kinda underwhelming. If you're going to hype a certain aspect of a film, then that's a part you need to sure is good as it can be.

Their job is to make people want to see the movie. They couldn't *not* hype up the legendary battles as much as they did.

But they also likely didn't have any choice in making the battles end up the way they did. I'm quite confident there was a very strict "nobody can lose" decree from above that prevented the battles from living up to the hype and yet they had to hype them up regardless. They had to act like these were the best battles ever and that this was the ultimate showdown even though everyone involved with them probably knew, deep down, that they could have done so much better. I mean Tomioka Atsuhiro is certainly capable of better and yet he didn't deliver. I don't think that's his fault.

Also, nice job on the new comparison for Pikachu's Rescue Adventure. Almost makes one wonder if 4Kids WANTED non-fans to hate Pokémon...

Thanks.

And yeah, I dunno. It sure seems that way, huh? I did an informal survey on Twitter about whether or not the fans who had only seen the dubbed version were able to follow along and while most of the people who replied said that they could there were still a few who said they had trouble. It certainly was an odd decision on 4Kids' part.

PS: Will you do comparisons for the Baby Lugia 3-parter (and maybe the episodes foreshadowing it) as part of Lugia Lundes

Perhaps...

 

[MizuTaipu]

I wonder if, since they have to chug out a new movie each summer, the quick turnaround prevents them from constructing the plot and action better?