Starter Discussion

[SUP3RN0VA]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I always figured Fennekin just didn't come with Ember, at lv. 5, like the other starters come with their elemental attacks, and instead learned it at 8, and then learned Howl at 11. But if that isn't the case and they are covering up an attack by showing Fennekin at 11, then that is much more fair and makes a heck of a lot more sense!

It probably isn't confusion, though. It's a bit too powerful to be learned so early, especially compared to what the others learn at the same level. Perhaps Psywave or Astonish, though.

I doubt Fennekin will learn Astonish as opposed to a Psychic type move, if Fennekin does evolve into a Fire/Psychic Pokemon.

 

[Neptune's Disciple]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I always figured Fennekin just didn't come with Ember, at lv. 5, like the other starters come with their elemental attacks, and instead learned it at 8, and then learned Howl at 11. But if that isn't the case and they are covering up an attack by showing Fennekin at 11, then that is much more fair and makes a heck of a lot more sense!

It probably isn't confusion, though. It's a bit too powerful to be learned so early, especially compared to what the others learn at the same level. Perhaps Psywave or Astonish, though.

Chespin, Fennekin, and Froakie are all shown with their first elemental move at lv. 5.

If it is a Psychic move, then my hope is for Confusion. Psywave is a completely crap move that doesn't even take into account type effectiveness (apart from Dark's immunity), giving Fennekin basically a weaker special coverage move with random base power, that even a resisted Ember would generally outdamage. As @YamiiDenryuu pointed out, Confusion is typically the first elemental move of many psychic types, and when you consider that Rollout's power builds quite easily, and Quick Attack has increased priority, I don't think it would to too much of a stretch to give Fennekin a slightly more powerful coverage move.

 

[NoirGrimoir]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

^ Confusion can also cause confusion status, though. I suppose it could be Confusion, I would definitely like that, but again, I just think it's a little much compared to the others' attacks.

Maybe it learns a whole new move?

 

[Lofty]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I am sorry, but why should we rule out Poison, Ghost, Flying, Fairy, Electric and even Ice? The others I understand, but I don't see why Chespin can't evolve into Grass/Poison or Grass/Fairy...?

Thinking about it more, Chespin could become Poison or Fairy, it does have spines that could contain toxins, and a happy-go-lucky attitude... but Ghost? You don't typically see the spirits and ghosts of starters as being their own Pokemon. I honestly don't see how Chespin could become any of the others, though...

 

[Miar]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Do the starters have to gain types when they evolve?
Back in my day of 251, only Charmander gained an extra type (and Bulbasaur was already half-poison) [/oldmanrambling]

Serperior, Sceptile, and Samurott also stayed pure grass/water. I can't see Chespin being different. Rollout doesn't mean anything. Marill and Jigglypuff know it too.

 

[Rithirh]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

It's been a long while since all three starters have been single type; I, for one, would find it refreshing if that's what they do this gen, but I doubt that will be the case.

 

[Charbok]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I'll probably go with the fire starter this time around since I just really love the design of it. I might pick the grass one in the third version since I rarely start off with a Grass type and I love the design of it this gen. I also think that a Fire/Psychic type combination would be pretty cool.

 

[Pokémon Master Ash]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I'm gonna be the oddball out, and I'm going with Froakie this time around myself.

I like Fennekin's design, but it gives off that whole Snivy vibe of "I'm better than you, bi***" and I'm kinda sick of that.

Chespin's okay but he seems too...something. IDK, what.

Froakie's interesting to me. Can't put my finger on it.

Previously, I went with:

Gen I: Charmander (Stereotypical Choice)
Gen II: Cyndaquil
Gen III: Torchic
Gen IV: Piplup
Gen V: Oshawott

 

[S.S. Shadow Minun]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Thinking about it more, Chespin could become Poison or Fairy, it does have spines that could contain toxins, and a happy-go-lucky attitude... but Ghost? You don't typically see the spirits and ghosts of starters as being their own Pokemon. I honestly don't see how Chespin could become any of the others, though...

Chespin doesn't look like a fairy at all. And, Chespin could be part Poison-type, thought typical hedgehogs are not poisonous. Giving him a humanoid or rodent-like creature, he could be part Ground, Dark or Fighting type. The Grass/Rock-type combination was never used since its use on Lileep/Cradily, so it could be possible for Chespin himself.

I'll probably go with the fire starter this time around since I just really love the design of it. I might pick the grass one in the third version since I rarely start off with a Grass type and I love the design of it this gen. I also think that a Fire/Psychic type combination would be pretty cool.

I do agree with that. Fire/Psychic could match Fennekin's origin (though he's more a fennec fox than a Kitsune). Plus, Fire/Fairy could work for him, too.

 

[brentoni]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I won't decide on a starter until I know more about evolved forms, and even then unless something really stands out I'll probably just choose by eenie meenie miney mo.
In gen 5 I thought I was going to choose oshawott but decided to choose one of the other 2 at random when I saw how samurott looked. Chespin has a similar look to oshawott so if they follow the style that I thought oshawott's evos would have (bipedal, similar shape to blaziken or lucario) I might choose him but for now the starters are so equal imo that I can't choose.

 

[Rithirh]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

It's been a long while since all three starters have been single type; I, for one, would find it refreshing if that's what they do this gen, but I doubt that will be the case.

We had two single type starters last generation, so personally that last thing I want is more single type starters. Single type Pokémon are usually boring to me.

I agree with you that duel types are more interesting, and I'll be content as long as the duel types of the starters aren't superfluous like Empoleon's or Embour's typing. I'm just musing to myself since gen 2 was the only time all three starters remained single type. On the other hand, gen 4 is the only time all three starters become duel type so I guess it's moot, but that's what makes forums fun.

 

[Envoy]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

I'd rather they do a reverse Gen V thing and have Fennekin remain single typed while Chespin and Froakie evolve into dual types.

Frankly, I don't love the idea of all three Starters being dual types. There's nothing wrong with single-typed 'mons.

 

[Neptune's Disciple]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

It's been a long while since all three starters have been single type; I, for one, would find it refreshing if that's what they do this gen, but I doubt that will be the case.

We had two single type starters last generation, so personally that last thing I want is more single type starters. Single type Pokémon are usually boring to me.

I agree with you that duel types are more interesting, and I'll be content as long as the duel types of the starters aren't superfluous like Empoleon's or Embour's typing. I'm just musing to myself since gen 2 was the only time all three starters remained single type. On the other hand, gen 4 is the only time all three starters become duel type so I guess it's moot, but that's what makes forums fun.

How are Empoleon's or Emboar's secondary types superfluous? Steel is the single most defensive type, and gives Empoleon a whole lot more utility than it would have if it were pure water. Additionally, Emboar's secondary fighting type (while completely unoriginal) is a huge boost for fire, it means that it gets STAB on two excellent offensive types, while mitigating Fire's SR weakness. The issue with those two is their stat distribution, which leaves a lot to desired. While Emboar's attacking and HP stats are high, it doesn't have the speed in order to utilise its offensive capabilities, nor the defensive stats to utilise any kind of defensive capability. The reason that Emboar sucks in comparison to Blaziken and Infernape comes down purely to stat distribution, ability, and movepool, obviously not it's 'superfluous' typing. Empoleon suffers largely from being a jack of all trades and master of none when it comes to stats. It's SP.A is good, but lacks the ability to back it up with good coverage moves or speed. It would be much better if its physical and special stats were switched, allowing it to take advantage of its access to agility and swords dance, aqua jet, waterfall, EQ, and its ability Defiant, and a plethora of very useful resistances. Empoleon is immune or resistant to 12 of the 17 types. Doesn't exactly leave a whole lot of attacking room now, does it?

 

[Envoy]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

@Neptune's Disciple I think they meant superfluous from a design standpoint. I'm on the fence as to whether I personally think they're superfluous or not, but I'm gonna try to put myself in their shoes.

What does an adorable little penguin chick have to do with Steel? They didn't introduce any Steel elements to the Piplup family's design until Empoleon came along, and even there it's a little on the subtle side. Ice would have made a better subtype, given the animal it was based off of and the fact that the evolutionary chain didn't even hint at Steel until Empoleon smacked you in the face with it. Emboar meanwhile, would have made more sense as a Dark type or something, I guess. I dunno, isn't it supposed to be partially based on a demon? Honestly, I would have preferred him as pure Fire.

 

[SUP3RN0VA]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

@Neptune's Disciple I think they meant superfluous from a design standpoint. I'm on the fence as to whether I personally think they're superfluous or not, but I'm gonna try to put myself in their shoes.

What does an adorable little penguin chick have to do with Steel? They didn't introduce any Steel elements to the Piplup family's design until Empoleon came along, and even there it's a little on the subtle side. Ice would have made a better subtype, given the animal it was based off of and the fact that the evolutionary chain didn't even hint at Steel until Empoleon smacked you in the face with it. Emboar meanwhile, would have made more sense as a Dark type or something, I guess. I dunno, isn't it supposed to be partially based on a demon? Honestly, I would have preferred him as pure Fire.

It's not the first time Gamefreak has done that. Charmander didn't show any signs of becoming part Flying type until it became a Charizard. Torchic didn't show any signs of becoming part Fighting type until Combusken either.

 

[pastabender]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

Leading on from that (sort of), I feel like there is a decent possibility of Fennekin becoming part Flying as well as the rumoured psychic. Looking at its hind legs, it has those almost wing-like features and I could definitely see it evolving into not so much a 'flying fox' but definitely into some sort of fox-pegasus. Those things on its legs have to be significant in some way.

 

[Team Gaara]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

@Neptune's Disciple I think they meant superfluous from a design standpoint. I'm on the fence as to whether I personally think they're superfluous or not, but I'm gonna try to put myself in their shoes.

What does an adorable little penguin chick have to do with Steel? They didn't introduce any Steel elements to the Piplup family's design until Empoleon came along, and even there it's a little on the subtle side. Ice would have made a better subtype, given the animal it was based off of and the fact that the evolutionary chain didn't even hint at Steel until Empoleon smacked you in the face with it. Emboar meanwhile, would have made more sense as a Dark type or something, I guess. I dunno, isn't it supposed to be partially based on a demon? Honestly, I would have preferred him as pure Fire.

I can understand if you mean design-wise, but Prinplup did at least learn Metal Claw (and unlike Charmander, it doesn't really have any physical claws) to hint at a possible Steel typing.

Emboar, I can agree with. I don't see why we needed another Fire-Fighting starter evolution. Despite what he's based off of, I really would have rathered him as pure Fire or even Fire/Dark, as, yes, he is based on a demon pig; Zhu Bajie. But I guess he's more based on a wrestler.

 

[Neptune's Disciple]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

@Neptune's Disciple I think they meant superfluous from a design standpoint. I'm on the fence as to whether I personally think they're superfluous or not, but I'm gonna try to put myself in their shoes.

What does an adorable little penguin chick have to do with Steel? They didn't introduce any Steel elements to the Piplup family's design until Empoleon came along, and even there it's a little on the subtle side. Ice would have made a better subtype, given the animal it was based off of and the fact that the evolutionary chain didn't even hint at Steel until Empoleon smacked you in the face with it. Emboar meanwhile, would have made more sense as a Dark type or something, I guess. I dunno, isn't it supposed to be partially based on a demon? Honestly, I would have preferred him as pure Fire.

I can understand if you mean design-wise, but Prinplup did at least learn Metal Claw (and unlike Charmander, it doesn't really have any physical claws) to hint at a possible Steel typing.

Emboar, I can agree with. I don't see why we needed another Fire-Fighting starter evolution. Despite what he's based off of, I really would have rathered him as pure Fire or even Fire/Dark, as, yes, he is based on a demon pig; Zhu Bajie. But I guess he's more based on a wrestler.

I don't think either of them are superfluous when you consider them from a conceptual or aesthetic standpoint either. Sure, Emboar could have been Fire/Dark, but the concept of a mexican wrestler/demon pig does fit Fire/Fighting, albeit unoriginal in terms of starters. Overall though, Fire/Fighting is still a fairly rare type combination, and one that is potentially very strong, movepool and stat distribution permitting, which is where Emboar falls down significantly. Empoleon's secondary Steel typing, in my opinion, comes from its abilities as an ice-breaker, it literally carves through the Ice with it's metal-rimmed wings. Water/Ice may have also made sense due to its natural environment, however I for one am very glad that they chose Steel instead of Ice, which is one of the more common secondary types for water. I would love to see more Water/Steel types too, possibly an evolution for Octillery?

EDIT: @Rithirh See up above.

 

[Rithirh]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

How are Empoleon's or Emboar's secondary types superfluous? Steel is the single most defensive type, and gives Empoleon a whole lot more utility than it would have if it were pure water. Additionally, Emboar's secondary fighting type (while completely unoriginal) is a huge boost for fire, it means that it gets STAB on two excellent offensive types, while mitigating Fire's SR weakness. The issue with those two is their stat distribution, which leaves a lot to desired. While Emboar's attacking and HP stats are high, it doesn't have the speed in order to utilise its offensive capabilities, nor the defensive stats to utilise any kind of defensive capability. The reason that Emboar sucks in comparison to Blaziken and Infernape comes down purely to stat distribution, ability, and movepool, obviously not it's 'superfluous' typing. Empoleon suffers largely from being a jack of all trades and master of none when it comes to stats. It's SP.A is good, but lacks the ability to back it up with good coverage moves or speed. It would be much better if its physical and special stats were switched, allowing it to take advantage of its access to agility and swords dance, aqua jet, waterfall, EQ, and its ability Defiant, and a plethora of very useful resistances. Empoleon is immune or resistant to 12 of the 17 types. Doesn't exactly leave a whole lot of attacking room now, does it?

See down below.

@Neptune's Disciple I think they meant superfluous from a design standpoint. I'm on the fence as to whether I personally think they're superfluous or not, but I'm gonna try to put myself in their shoes.

What does an adorable little penguin chick have to do with Steel? They didn't introduce any Steel elements to the Piplup family's design until Empoleon came along, and even there it's a little on the subtle side. Ice would have made a better subtype, given the animal it was based off of and the fact that the evolutionary chain didn't even hint at Steel until Empoleon smacked you in the face with it. Emboar meanwhile, would have made more sense as a Dark type or something, I guess. I dunno, isn't it supposed to be partially based on a demon? Honestly, I would have preferred him as pure Fire.

Grass Type Warrior basically hit the nail on the head. Thanks for saving me some time, buddy.

 

[TheBugChampion]

Re: Starter Discussion and Speculation

soooo i still have hope that froakie will sort of reverse-evolve into some epic giant floating tadpole. /flying or /dark or whatever i dont care, i just want him to end as a tadpole since he starts as a frog. xD

stage two could lost front limbs and grow a tail and have bigger suds.

god i love froakie. i wonder how long before i'll get a chespin on my team to partner up with him. :/ i hope we gain access to training/breeding not too late in the game.