Review BW027: The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!

[Necrozma]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

but ultimately, it felt like Kibago was being developped for the both of them instead of Iris having a character and a quest outside of Kibago (which someone else agreed with).

Wait, so Iris should get a goal that revolves entirely around her, and not her Pokémon? I thought that the first Iris focused episode already resolved that her growth is linked to the growth of her Pokémon (more accurately, Kibago), which is why she develops as a character together with him. Her quest is to raise Kibago (which is, if you wanna know, in direct connection to her), and thus you can't expect Iris to develop without Kibago developing with her. It's like you are saying Ash's development shouldn't revolve around his Pokémon. (It's his Pokémon who get stronger each saga)

I admit that I was wrong with the first part (yes, you did say she did stuff), though your posts come across that way, always.

Yes, Iris did do stuff, yes she did develop a little bit (this problem with Crimgan just improved her dragon skills), she helped another dragon trainer with her knowledge allowing her to gain control over Crimgan again and ultimately, without her, Kibago wouldn't have been where he is now - he finally mastered Dragon Rage. In my opinion, Iris is progressing wonderfully in her quest and I believe that she'll take on a more active role now that Kibago has a viable attack. (Emonga doesn't count because she dislikes battling and can't control her Volt Switch)

 

[Hellion]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

Wait, so Iris should get a goal that revolves entirely around her, and not her Pokémon?

No, but that through her quest, she should be able to overcome things, issues, character flaws, etc. so that her quest actually has some meaning. So far, it has none.

she helped another dragon trainer with her knowledge allowing her to gain control over Crimgan

And you've just hit the nail on the head as to what is wrong with this episode. It's Johto filler all over again. Main character talks with COTD, and the COTD develops and deals with the Team Rocket attack. Ultimately, this episode was about Iris helping Emmy develop more than it was about Emmy helping Iris develop, since... Iris isn't changed in the least after this episode, Emmy is.

without her, Kibago wouldn't have been where he is now - he finally mastered Dragon Rage

She was never shown to try to help it specifically master the attack, never had to come up with a way to help him. He just did on his own, after observing Crimgan master Draco Meteor.

I believe that she'll take on a more active role now that Kibago has a viable attack. (Emonga doesn't count because she dislikes battling and can't control her Volt Switch)

Of course, Emonga doesn't count. There's always an excuse...

Also, Kibago already had a viable attack with Scratch, already could have at least tried to help resolve the plot of the episode, which prior to this one, he did exactly once, in BW022. Could have been played for laughs like they did with Torchic, but they didn't, they just let it do nothing in Iris' hair. That tells me pretty much all I can expect from Iris from now on.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

We might know more about her backstory and Kibago might be getting stronger, but it's not translating into Iris growing as a character, becoming stronger, overcoming some personal issues or flaws, etc.

I think your expecting way too much from a children TV show,with storyline not being written like some oscar nominated movie.All that talk about character development,having "Iris evolve as person"etc will come but not in amount you expect it to be.

Your raising your expectations way too high and Iris actually received some development in this episode.Her Axew managed to learn dragon rage,aswell helping that dragon trainer to get control of Druddigon again showcasing her hidden skills becoming better as dragon trainer.

Wait, so Iris should get a goal that revolves entirely around her, and not her Pokémon? I thought that the first Iris focused episode already resolved that her growth is linked to the growth of her Pokémon (more accurately, Kibago), which is why she develops as a character together with him. Her quest is to raise Kibago (which is, if you wanna know, in direct connection to her), and thus you can't expect Iris to develop without Kibago developing with her. It's like you are saying Ash's development shouldn't revolve around his Pokémon. (It's his Pokémon who get stronger each saga)

Seconded,every character goal so far revolved mainly around pokemon with anime being primarily focused on small creatures which posses abilities.Its about developing them along with developing humans through help of their pokemon to become better as trainers and overcome obstacles which may be put in their way progressing their careers(like learning how to master pokemon moves and raise them like Iris is doing,resolve conflicts they may created with rivals like Dawn or May did etc).

Without pokemon its not possible to develop Iris or any character since their stories are connected with them and vice versa.

No, but that through her quest, she should be able to overcome things, issues, character flaws, etc. so that her quest actually has some meaning. So far, it has none.

How exactly her quest doesnt have meaning already?Iris learning how to control her pokemon and mastering their moves already provides meaning to her character and quest since it serves as testament to her skills as dragon trainer getting developed learning how to deal with problems which are revolved around her pokemon.

Not every episode which focus around her is expected to contain some deep character development of Iris getting over her flaws and issues.Her issues are revolved around her pokemon and by learning how to put things under control she is developing as character.

 

[Duckgon Z]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

I fully recognized that Iris did stuff in this episode. She had a small battle with Kibago, she removed the binding around Crimgan's leg, she mimed while Ash and Emmy were battling, she ran in the wood and stood on the sidelines of a Rocket battle.

I have to disagree with you here, she was helping Emmy battle, telling her what attacks to use since Emmy had no idea what to do in that situation. Did you miss the part where she tried to save Crimgan and Axew by trying to jump on the ship. As for battling Team Rocket, you mean the Emolga who doesn't like to battle or the Exadrill that doesn't listen to her?

Simply that I'm not seeing anything in there that really screams focus and progression. The reason this is an Iris focus episode has more to do with every other character doing less and having a bland COTD to make Iris look alive in comparaison than it has to do with Iris doing more, taking her own destiny in her hands and taking steps to reach her goal herself. We might know more about her backstory and Kibago might be getting stronger, but it's not translating into Iris growing as a character, becoming stronger, overcoming some personal issues or flaws, etc.

Axew mastered Dragon Rage, I'm not sure what you want out of a sidekick character who is not a co-star (I don't include May of course).

 

[Necrozma]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

No, but that through her quest, she should be able to overcome things, issues, character flaws, etc. so that her quest actually has some meaning. So far, it has none.

- Her powerhouse doesn't obey her.
- She can't make Emonga to battle despite herself wanting to.

I believe these are called problems/issues.

And you've just hit the nail on the head as to what is wrong with this episode. It's Johto filler all over again. Main character talks with COTD, and the COTD develops and deals with the Team Rocket attack. Ultimately, this episode was about Iris helping Emmy develop more than it was about Emmy helping Iris develop, since... Iris isn't changed in the least after this episode, Emmy is.

Even if that were the case, this episode established Iris's knowledge and connection to the dragon types, her true goal was finally revealed to Ash and Dento and she has shown a lot of potential to become a dragon master.

She was never shown to try to help it specifically master the attack, never had to come up with a way to help him. He just did on his own, after observing Crimgan master Draco Meteor.

Which she would have done exactly, how?

Take Ash's Gible for example. D)

Ash did nothing, he just kept using Gible until that thing finally learned how to master the move. The same case is with Kibago, Iris kept commanding Kibago to use Dragon Rage until Kibago finally mastered the move.

Of course, Emonga doesn't count. There's always an excuse...

As I already said above, "excuses" = issues.

Also, Kibago already had a viable attack with Scratch, already could have at least tried to help resolve the plot of the episode, which prior to this one, he did exactly once, in BW022. Could have been played for laughs like they did with Torchic, but they didn't, they just let it do nothing in Iris' hair. That tells me pretty much all I can expect from Iris from now on.

That's right, a move that can barely beat Ash's baby Zuruggu should have definitely been used in the recent episodes. Perhaps against the evil Litwicks or Team Rocket?

 

[Iteru]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

I did think that Iris was quite impressive in helping Emmy during the battle. It seemed that from this episode she could put up a challenge for Satoshi if Shaga asks her to battle with the position later on for the 8th badge, assuming that Kibago is much stronger by this point and that some of her other Pokémon are cooperative.

 

[Hellion]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

I have to disagree with you here, she was helping Emmy battle, telling her what attacks to use since Emmy had no idea what to do in that situation.

So... Emmy became a better trainer? Emmy learned new skills? Which lead Emmy to win the battle against Ash and Team Rocket. She's the one getting the developpement, cause she's the one who has grown through this episode, who has changed and progressed as a trainer.

Did you miss the part where she tried to save Crimgan and Axew by trying to jump on the ship.

I included it in the running after Team Rocket... I never said she only ran horizontally

As for battling Team Rocket, you mean the Emolga who doesn't like to battle or the Exadrill that doesn't listen to her?

No I mean the Kibago that just rescued itself and Crimgan from Team Rocket without her help, the same Kibago who waited until after Team Rocket's pokémon were down for the count before jumping in the fray and aim at an immobile target.

Axew mastered Dragon Rage

- Her powerhouse doesn't obey her.
- She can't make Emonga to battle despite herself wanting to.

How do those reflect on her though? Here's the thing. Emonga not wanting to battle. What does Iris do? Nothing. Does she seem to care? No. Excadrill doesn't obey her. What does Iris do? Nothing. Does she seem to care? No. So why should I?

Let me give you an exemple. Dawn and Pachirisu's capture episode. Pachirisu originally refusing to obey Dawn actually reflected on Dawn, actually showcasing her lack of confidence, her self-doubt. Same for Mamoswine later disobeying her, where we actually saw her care about proving her worth to Mamoswine, which she would have been unable to do pre-Wallace Cup. Thing is, developping a pokémon isn't a substitute for developping a character, in an ideal world, they should do both.


Even if that were the case, this episode established Iris's knowledge and connection to the dragon types, her true goal was finally revealed to Ash and Dento and she has shown a lot of potential to become a dragon master.

That's right, a move that can barely beat Ash's baby Zuruggu should have definitely been used in the recent episodes. Perhaps against the evil Litwicks or Team Rocket?

Considering the alternative of "Hey I'll do nothing while other people save me... again... for the hundredth time... I mean, I could be sucked in a hell dimension, but nah, I won't even try to get involved... Please, let me disappear from the screen for the five minutes of this final battle"

I'd say yes. Hell it might even have played for laughs which I would have found endearing, which inaction and sidelines standing is anything but.

 

[Necrozma]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

How do those reflect on her though? Here's the thing. Emonga not wanting to battle. What does Iris do? Nothing. Does she seem to care? No. Excadrill doesn't obey her. What does Iris do? Nothing. Does she seem to care? No. So why should I?

Let me give you an exemple. Dawn and Pachirisu's capture episode. Pachirisu originally refusing to obey Dawn actually reflected on Dawn, actually showcasing her lack of confidence, her self-doubt. Same for Mamoswine later disobeying her, where we actually saw her care about proving her worth to Mamoswine, which she would have been unable to do pre-Wallace Cup. Thing is, developping a pokémon isn't a substitute for developping a character, in an ideal world, they should do both.

Doryuuzu is always in his drill mode, he never comes out normally. The only other way is via Attract which I doubt anyone will think of. What can Iris do there? What would Dawn do there? -.-

Iris practically begged Emonga for her to battle, what, was she supposed to make her own Pokémon battle? Not her style, not her personality. That's Paul's way of training, not hers.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

How do those reflect on her though? Here's the thing. Emonga not wanting to battle. What does Iris do? Nothing. Does she seem to care? No. Excadrill doesn't obey her. What does Iris do? Nothing. Does she seem to care? No. So why should I?

Your not being fair with Excadrill example.We all saw how this pokemon behaves being completely out of control,its not like Iris could do much about it.She basically doesnt have idea how to put that beast under control being required some help from side in future or some similar scenario which happened when Ash earned Charizard respect to have her being able to do something about it.

Thing is, developping a pokémon isn't a substitute for developping a character, in an ideal world, they should do both.

And how developing her pokemon like Axew isnt at same time developing her character?It shows Iris growth of learning how to master her dragon pokemon moves and how to become better trainer raising up her selfesteem starting to prove she is capable.

Ash has been developing with help of his pokemon for years and i dont see you complaining about it.

 

[Yoshi-san]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

How do those reflect on her though?

If you really think about it, they do reflect her as a character. As you know Iris is a lot of talk but no proof and I see her current team reflects that.

Kibago reflects her background and maturity. She said that she wants to be a Dragon Master. She claims that she knows everything but can't show it properly due to the lack of power. Kibago is a Dragon type and him not being able to use Dragon Rage properly reflects Iris' knowledge. Now that he can use it doesn't means his growth ends. The same for Iris's character growth.

Doryuuzu reflects Iris's potential and what she is compared to her Video Game counterpart. I believe that Iris can be a very strong battler via Kibago and Doryuuzu but she can't prove it now. Also Anime!Iris is basically Games!Iris In Name Only, as her personality isn't the same with the VG character. Note that Doryuuzu has "Ryuu" in it which means Dragon. His name has Dragon in it but he's not a dragon obviously.

Emonga reflect Iris's tendencies to do something unexpected or find ways to doing things differently. Emonga doesn't like to battle so she finds ways to get what she wants without any trouble. In BW009 instead of Iris using her Pokemon to save Kibago, she used herself(though Doryuuzu doesn't listen to her so...).

So what I'm saying is that I feel Iris's character growth is linked with her Pokemon and Kibago mastering Dragon Rage is just the beginning of her Character Development. Just imagine how great she would be when she can control all her Pokemon without any problems.

 

[Andre27]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

That would be interesting. I have yet to see the episode, but i like to say goodbye to dragon sneeze and to see Tepig fight a dragon.

 

[Hellion]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

Ash did nothing, he just kept using Gible until that thing finally learned how to master the move. The same case is with Kibago, Iris kept commanding Kibago to use Dragon Rage until Kibago finally mastered the move.

Actually, the writers had Ash learn from Wilma how Draco Meteor worked (i.e. building up your dragon power, concentrating in your center, faceing up and letting it rip) in DP156 and when that didn't work the first time, Ash theorized that Gible needed to build more dragon power before firing, which is what Gible did at the end of that episode, successfully pulling it off. At the beginning of DP158, Ash was reusing the same terms and focusing on building up Gible's dragon power, showing an actual skill and an actual involvement in the process.

Iris had no idea how to solve Kibago's problem, didn't even attempt to since she was never shown to work specifically on it and ultimately, had no part in him mastering it. Ergo, Kibago developping doesn't translate into Iris developpement.

Doryuuzu is always in his drill mode, he never comes out normally. The only other way is via Attract which I doubt anyone will think of. What can Iris do there?

Apparantly let it rot away in its ball, cause so far, that's all the writers had her do.

Notice that in my original post, there were two questions: What does she do? is one, but the other is Does she care? She has two disobedient pokémon, but... does it affect her in any way? Not really. It's not making her question her skills as a trainer, it doesn't plague her with doubt. On the other hand, she doesn't do anything to rectify the situation, to make it better. I don't care if she tries to bite down Excadrill to get it out of drill mode in the process, it'd be funnier and more compelling than her standing there doing nothing about it. The same applies to Emonga. She was shown not wanting to battle, so what does Iris do? She stops battling and lets Ash's Snivy battle Chaobu instead. She just accepts things as they are, accepts the status quo, and that's ultimately what I find boring and that's ultimately what transpired in this episode.

What would Dawn do there? -.-

That's besides the point as I was only using this as an example, but since you're asking. First time around, she released Pachirisu, but then tried to show it, and herself in the process, that she was worthy to train it by helping it deal with Team Rocket. Second time around, she let Mamoswine out of its ball, tried to ignite its passion for battling, tried to show it what contests were, tried to interest it in her world. She also learned first aid which helped her care for and earn its trust.

Again... she didn't leave things as they are, she tried to change them, she cared enough about her pokémon to improve herself for them.

Doryuuzu reflects Iris's potential and what she is compared to her Video Game counterpart. I believe that Iris can be a very strong battler via Kibago and Doryuuzu but she can't prove it now. Also Anime!Iris is basically Games!Iris In Name Only, as her personality isn't the same with the VG character. Note that Doryuuzu has "Ryuu" in it which means Dragon. His name has Dragon in it but he's not a dragon obviously.

Wut? Just... Wut?

So what I'm saying is that I feel Iris's character growth is linked with her Pokemon and Kibago mastering Dragon Rage is just the beginning of her Character Development.

But... that's the thing. She had nothing to do with Kibago mastering dragon rage. She gained no skill from trying to teach him.

In this week's episode, Kibago developped, Emmy developped, but Iris... we learned more about her but her outlook on herself or others or the world isn't changed. Her level of skill remains the same. She didn't gain any knowledge from it. She's exactly the same character she was last week, and the week before, and the week before, etc.

 

[Agent_Kir]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

I liked that Axew and TR's Pokemon were pretty competent. Didn't expect Yamask to be that strong!

 

[Musashi]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

I call it "inconsistency". I wouldn't be surprised if they appear in their pre-BW personas again...

No, it's calked "character development". They never became funny after going back to white.

Though Kojiro did crack me up when he said the mecha was perfect. XD Who says they can't still be a little funny?

I liked that Axew and TR's Pokemon were pretty competent. Didn't expect Yamask to be that strong!

Same! About time Kojiro got a non gag Pokemon.

 

[Masurao]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

The same applies to Emonga. She was shown not wanting to battle, so what does Iris do? She stops battling and lets Ash's Snivy battle Chaobu instead. She just accepts things as they are, accepts the status quo, and that's ultimately what I find boring and that's ultimately what transpired in this episode.

To be fair, she was really trying to get Emonga to battle for her. Yeah, seemingly begging is not the best way to rectify the situation, but at least she tried. Emonga was just being a bitch. When Emonga failed she attempted to ask Ash to let her use Snivy, and he declined which angered her because she did seemingly want to battle. She even told Bianca that they should battle again as the Biance left.

 

[Yoshi-san]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

To be fair, she was really trying to get Emonga to battle for her. Yeah, seemingly begging is not the best way to rectify the situation, but at least she tried. Emonga was just being a bitch. When Emonga failed she attempted to ask Ash to let her use Snivy, and he declined which angered her because she did seemingly want to battle. She even told Bianca that they should battle again as the Biance left.

This really.

 

[Hellion]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

To be fair, she was really trying to get Emonga to battle for her.

And when that didn't work... she did what? Just plain gave up and accepted that Emolga wasn't gonna battle. Just like that. Didn't try to get her to even watch someone else's battle to get Emonga into battling, didn't even attempt to battle with her Kibago... she just accepted that it wasn't gonna work.

 

[Iteru]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

To be fair (this expression is coming up a lot, huh? ) the show has always said that the trainer should do what's best for their Pokémon and keep them happy, so if Emonga didn't want to battle then Iris accepting that was just being consistent with the message of the show and she can use Kibago for a rematch with Bel.

I think this could be why Kibago mastered Dragon Rage in this episode as three Pokémon at once being unable to battle for varied reasons could have been too much. Plus it did seem like a good time to wrap up that plot before it wore out a little, and it allows for other Iris plots to start/continue.

 

[Masurao]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

And when that didn't work... she did what? Just plain gave up and accepted that Emolga wasn't gonna battle. Just like that. Didn't try to get her to even watch someone else's battle to get Emonga into battling, didn't even attempt to battle with her Kibago... she just accepted that it wasn't gonna work.

Well, I don't know how else she could have dealt with the situation in this particular case. Emonga was up in a tree, and ignoring her plea's to come down while Bianca was battling Ash. After Snivy got Emonga off the tree, and Iris scolded it Emonga just sighed before electrocuting them all. Being a general pain in the ass. You could say Snivy did a better job than Iris herself at getting Emonga under control, but that's probably want Emonga needed...a fellow female Pokemon to tell her to get her shit straight. I'm largely indifferent to Iris, but in Emonga's case she seemed kinda screwed. I never expected Iris to get that much attention anyway in this series.

 

[J J M]

re: BW 027 "The Road to Become a Dragon Master! Kibago VS Crimgan!!" Review Thread

You know, at the risk of looking like a jackass, *points to sig*