Fairies and the Fairy Type: Why Fairies aren't a bad idea for a type

[Zeta]

I think Ghost, Fairy, and Dragon all have the same design direction. In that they're all based on the artstyle rather than unifying themes.

Ghost-type Pokemon look mischievous (there's an awful lot of squinting and smirking) and amorphous. They usually lack feet.

Dragon-type Pokemon look like powerful kajiu. They're vaguely reptilian.

Fairy-type Pokemon look cute and amorphous. They're vaguely humanoid.

I don't really think any of them has hewed very close to the mythological origins of their types, basically using that as a starting point.

 

[Red of Pallet]

I swear if it is weak against dark types too....

A wild Navi appeared! Wild Navi used "Hey listen". You got annoyed and left.

 

[Stratelier]

Rumor says Fairy is SE against Dark. I'll only believe that in advance if Dark is also SE against Fairy.

 

[Hidden Power]

Fairies are not a bad idea. I was never conformed with Clefairy being normal type if she has always possessed sobrenatural powers (Cosmic Power, Metronome and Psychic).

About Jigglypuff, the only magical thing on her is the Sing. A song that can make foe asleep, this seems very magical.

Gardevoir is a psychic, and near the fairy magic. But Marill I disagree totally.

 

[Latias418]

GF wanted to include a new type to balance the overpowered dragon type. It's not by chance that the new type is in advantage to dragon. As we can see, most of the dragons are in the OU tier, and many of them are hard to take down even with 4x weakness to ice.

You addressed a lot of posts in the thread, but ignored mine. Dragon is not an overpowered type. Of the Dragons in the game, not a single Dragon with less than 600 BST is used in standard competitive battling. There are six Dragons in OU, and every one of them was specifically designed to be extremely powerful. Currently, 75% of all fully-evolved Dragons have a BST of 600 or higher. If you gave 75% of all Pokemon of any other type 600 BST or higher, and then gave them good movepools and abilities, guess what... they'd be powerful, too! All five of the Dragons with less than 600 BST are terrible Pokemon despite their typing. The type itself is not that powerful inherently, it is just applied to Pokemon that are already powerful.

If they really want to tone down Dragons, all they have to do is stop giving them insane stats and movepools. They don't need to rashly make a new type for the primary purpose of dealing with them. In addition, by nerfing the Dragon type as a whole with the introduction of a new type designed to counter it, they're going to make normal Dragons with less than 600 BST, who already struggle, even worse.

Fairy-type Pokemon look cute and amorphous. They're vaguely humanoid.

We know of five Fairy type Pokemon currently. Only one is even remotely close to humanoid. None of them are amorphous. So, out of your post, the only thing we have to go on is "cute". This type has absolutely nothing to do with fairies, it has to do with "cute". Dragon type Pokemon invoke the feel of dragons. Marill does not invoke the feel of "fairy" just because it is "cute". Cute is also subjective, and there are tons of "cute" Pokemon. Can we make Pichu a Fairy type? I think Pichu is a lot cuter than Furabebe.

I would be completely fine with a Fairy type if it were well-thought out and actually WAS something. But these Pokemon don't fit under ANY definition of fairy, nor do they have anything in common other than being subjectively cute, which is a bizarre anti-accomplishment given that there are so many different definitions of fairy, and they somehow managed to pick a group of Pokemon that doesn't fit any of them. They don't even all have to be the same definition of fairy, they could all be from different takes on fairies... and yet none of them are based on any. Marill is just an aquatic mouse, Jigglypuff is a balloon whose trademark is singing lullabies (which is not magic), Gardevoir's powers are distinctly psychic and not magical in nature, and Furebebe is a flower. What does any of this have to do with any kind of fairy?

 

[Stratelier]

Dragon is not an overpowered type.

Apparently Game Freak disagrees. In fact, I'm having a hard time taking your post seriously because your following statements seem to outright contradict it.

If they really want to tone down Dragons, all they have to do is stop giving them insane stats and movepools.

That won't work as long as you can simply import your Dragons from G4 and find out they are just as OP in Unova as they were in Sinnoh/Johto/Kanto. Even if Hydreigon never happened and Unova's sole Dragon fighter is the Haxorus family, there's still the matter of Dragonite (now with Multiscale!), Salamence (with added Moxie!), and Garchomp to deal with.

IMO they should never have changed Outrage from Special to Physical, that alone would have put a nerf on boosted Outrage combos. Sure, it wouldn't necessarily prevent a player from Baton Passing some Nasty Plots to their Dragons, but it would give you more time to ready a defense; the STAB Outrage sweep would be more difficult to execute.

 

[Latias418]

Obviously not making more insanely powerful Dragons doesn't stop the current ones from being so powerful. However, I don't feel that the current batch is so out of control that all Dragons, including the normal ones that suck, need to be nerfed. They are powerful Pokemon, but that doesn't mean they need to be neutered. It's not like they're dominating the metagame. There's only one Dragon within the top five in usage, and a second within the top ten. Those numbers are pretty normal.

By any reasonable metric, Dragons aren't out of hand yet. My point is that if GF feels they're getting to the point where they are overpowered, they can stop making them as strong as they are. But they're not there yet, and nerfing them is just going to ruin the weak ones even more, and make some currently viable ones suffer.

 

[yourlilemogirl]

Rumor says Fairy is SE against Dark. I'll only believe that in advance if Dark is also SE against Fairy.

I don't think so, if it was, Gardevoir would've more than likely OHKO'd Hydreigon in this clip.

 

[Zeta]

Only one is even remotely close to humanoid. None of them are amorphous.

Two of the Pokemon are balls. That's a pretty amorphous body shape.

All of them are bipeds with hands, with the exception of Sylveon. That's basically as much coherency as Ghost-types rarely having legs.

 

[The Outrage]

IMO they should never have changed Outrage from Special to Physical, that alone would have put a nerf on boosted Outrage combos. Sure, it wouldn't necessarily prevent a player from Baton Passing some Nasty Plots to their Dragons, but it would give you more time to ready a defense; the STAB Outrage sweep would be more difficult to execute.

The change that made Outrage ridiculous wasn't turning it physical. It was giving it 120 base power. If it still had 90 base power and was a physical move, the pay-off compared to Dragon Claw would not have been worth it given its only 10 points higher (technically 15 points higher with STAB) and locks you into a move causing confusion. But a 120 base power move with STAB and Dragon Dance makes it worth it since very few things resist it.

 

[El_]

My point is that if GF feels they're getting to the point where they are overpowered, they can stop making them as strong as they are.

I'm surprised that no one has considered the possibility that Game Freak actually doesn't want to change a single thing about Dragon type Pokemon themselves. What I mean by that, is the "core" of the type. They are suppose to be powerful, hence why there hasn't been a single fully evolved Dragon with an averaged out BST below 90. Simply making "weaker lesser" dragons goes against this core idea.

Game Freak wants the type to remain the exact same while somehow balancing out its most powerful members. The answer: Fairy. Game Freak introduces another type that can much better be a legit counter and check to the type, while at the same time technically changing nothing about the Dragon type itself. Its a win-win situation in my book.

 

[Envoy]

I'm surprised that no one has considered the possibility that Game Freak actually doesn't want to change a single thing about Dragon type Pokemon themselves. What I mean by that, is the "core" of the type. They are suppose to be powerful, hence why there hasn't been a single fully evolved Dragon with an averaged out BST below 90. Simply making "weaker lesser" dragons goes against this core idea.

Game Freak wants the type to remain the exact same while somehow balancing out its most powerful members. The answer: Fairy. Game Freak introduces another type that can much better be a legit counter and check to the type, while at the same time technically changing nothing about the Dragon type itself. Its a win-win situation in my book.

They can have their cake and eat it too. I don't get why people can't see it.

 

[The Outrage]

Game Freak wants the type to remain the exact same while somehow balancing out its most powerful members. The answer: Fairy. Game Freak introduces another type that can much better be a legit counter and check to the type, while at the same time technically changing nothing about the Dragon type itself. Its a win-win situation in my book.

It feels more like lower-tier Dragons are the ones who are getting the brunt of the punishment. Let's face it, Altaria really doesn't have anything going for it other than being a Dragon. Now we have Fairy types, and we know there will be lower-tier fairies. It's not really going to have much to fight against them. Top tier dragons like Garchomp or Dragonite have a much wider movepool, and have been top tier despite x4 weakness to common moves and Stealth Rock (in the case of Dragonite and Salamence). Given that dragons are OU, there was no shortage of super-effective Dragon moves and ice moves in the metagame to counter them. Other types have persisted with more weaknesses, why are we suddenly seeing dragons as so frail? Unless Fairy is immune to Dragons (which I think would have been a much better thing to advertise than being super effective, I mean imagine watching Sylveon stand there as Hydreigon can't hit it with Draco Meteor) I doubt we'd see a significant impact in the top-tiers....and even then, immunity hasn't stopped people from using Earthquake.

 

[testflightwright]

But Marill I disagree totally.

This. When I saw marill was a fairy I was like what? I mean it kind of looks fairy...ish, but it does not make much sense. Maybe they will discover something new about the pokemon new xy and make it a little more believable.

 

[Spyspotter]

Sure, fairy in legends can be powerful, but that's not what those geniuses thought. Apparently Nintendo's definition of a fairy is a "cute" Pokémon that is really weak, and all the fairy Pokémon we know are tinkerbells. Besides, fairy typing is covered by psychic typing. Why not create a type that is actually useful?
Noise- attacks using loud noises. Possible Pokémon: Chatot (replace normal typing) and Exploud (may or may not keep normal typing)
Nuclear- attacks using radiation. I can't think of any possible Pokémon at the moment.
???- It's already a type, but if Pokémon were made in that type, they would be mysterious and unknown. Possible Pokémon: Unown (doesn't keep Psychic typing), Deoxys?

 

[Spyspotter]

Also, to any of you who think fairy type should be named light, that is an even worse idea than the type itself. Generally in fantasy games, light is a type that involves flashes of light. While this may seem lame, the attacker can do things while the victim is blinded by the light. Faint Attack anyone? Plus, plasma is also included and just as a light flash can hurt your eyes, it does damage to the victim and can even burn, blind, or paralyze it. Light is not a typing exclusive to those who are "good at heart." If it was, practically anything could have that type.

Sure, fairy in legends can be powerful, but that's not what those geniuses thought. Apparently Nintendo's definition of a fairy is a "cute" Pokémon that is really weak, and all the fairy Pokémon we know are tinkerbells. Besides, fairy typing is covered by psychic typing. Why not create a type that is actually useful?
Noise- attacks using loud noises. Possible Pokémon: Chatot (replace normal typing) and Exploud (may or may not keep normal typing)
Nuclear- attacks using radiation. I can't think of any possible Pokémon at the moment.
???- It's already a type, but if Pokémon were made in that type, they would be mysterious and unknown. Possible Pokémon: Unown (doesn't keep Psychic typing), Deoxys?

Game Freak wants the type to remain the exact same while somehow balancing out its most powerful members. The answer: Fairy. Game Freak introduces another type that can much better be a legit counter and check to the type, while at the same time technically changing nothing about the Dragon type itself. Its a win-win situation in my book.

It feels more like lower-tier Dragons are the ones who are getting the brunt of the punishment. Let's face it, Altaria really doesn't have anything going for it other than being a Dragon. Now we have Fairy types, and we know there will be lower-tier fairies. It's not really going to have much to fight against them. Top tier dragons like Garchomp or Dragonite have a much wider movepool, and have been top tier despite x4 weakness to common moves and Stealth Rock (in the case of Dragonite and Salamence). Given that dragons are OU, there was no shortage of super-effective Dragon moves and ice moves in the metagame to counter them. Other types have persisted with more weaknesses, why are we suddenly seeing dragons as so frail? Unless Fairy is immune to Dragons (which I think would have been a much better thing to advertise than being super effective, I mean imagine watching Sylveon stand there as Hydreigon can't hit it with Draco Meteor) I doubt we'd see a significant impact in the top-tiers....and even then, immunity hasn't stopped people from using Earthquake.

Yes, people still use Earthquake, but most ground-types have something else going for them. Sandslash is a powerful attacker with lots of scratching moves. Groudon is good at fire-type moves with its ability, Drought. The Geodude and Rhyhorn families all have rock typing while Onix evolves into a steel guy, which is still a good counter. Aside from Vibrava and Flygon being dragon types, the Trapinch family has a good Crunch. Nincada has nothing going for it, but at least it evolves into something useful. Claydol, Glisgor, and Excadrill are notable for their extra types. Dugtrio can at least learn Hyper Beam, and Donphan has Fire Fang and Thunder Fang. The only truly useless ground type is Stunfisk, and even that is not due to immunity. So, Earthquake and Dragons are both different situations.

 

[Spyspotter]

Game Freak wants the type to remain the exact same while somehow balancing out its most powerful members. The answer: Fairy. Game Freak introduces another type that can much better be a legit counter and check to the type, while at the same time technically changing nothing about the Dragon type itself. Its a win-win situation in my book.

It feels more like lower-tier Dragons are the ones who are getting the brunt of the punishment. Let's face it, Altaria really doesn't have anything going for it other than being a Dragon. Now we have Fairy types, and we know there will be lower-tier fairies. It's not really going to have much to fight against them. Top tier dragons like Garchomp or Dragonite have a much wider movepool, and have been top tier despite x4 weakness to common moves and Stealth Rock (in the case of Dragonite and Salamence). Given that dragons are OU, there was no shortage of super-effective Dragon moves and ice moves in the metagame to counter them. Other types have persisted with more weaknesses, why are we suddenly seeing dragons as so frail? Unless Fairy is immune to Dragons (which I think would have been a much better thing to advertise than being super effective, I mean imagine watching Sylveon stand there as Hydreigon can't hit it with Draco Meteor) I doubt we'd see a significant impact in the top-tiers....and even then, immunity hasn't stopped people from using Earthquake.

Yes, people still use Earthquake, but most ground-types have something else going for them. Sandslash is a powerful attacker with lots of scratching moves. Groudon is good at fire-type moves with its ability, Drought. The Geodude and Rhyhorn families all have rock typing while Onix evolves into a steel guy, which is still a good counter. Aside from Vibrava and Flygon being dragon types, the Trapinch family has a good Crunch. Nincada has nothing going for it, but at least it evolves into something useful. Claydol, Glisgor, and Excadrill are notable for their extra types. Dugtrio can at least learn Hyper Beam, and Donphan has Fire Fang and Thunder Fang. The only truly useless ground type is Stunfisk, and even that is not due to immunity. So, Earthquake and Dragons are both different situations.

 

[The Outrage]

Yes, people still use Earthquake, but most ground-types have something else going for them. Sandslash is a powerful attacker with lots of scratching moves. Groudon is good at fire-type moves with its ability, Drought. The Geodude and Rhyhorn families all have rock typing while Onix evolves into a steel guy, which is still a good counter. Aside from Vibrava and Flygon being dragon types, the Trapinch family has a good Crunch. Nincada has nothing going for it, but at least it evolves into something useful. Claydol, Glisgor, and Excadrill are notable for their extra types. Dugtrio can at least learn Hyper Beam, and Donphan has Fire Fang and Thunder Fang. The only truly useless ground type is Stunfisk, and even that is not due to immunity. So, Earthquake and Dragons are both different situations.

So you're saying Sandslash isn't at a disadvantage for having its best move doing zero damage to the many Flying and Levitate Pokemon because it has "scratching moves", and is at a completely different situation than dragons? What exactly is the point that you're trying to make, because you certainly aren't doing anything to address the issue at hand. Do you really think Dragons only use dragon moves that Fairy is going to stop them completely?

 

[Almonds]

The word "fairy" is from the kanji 妖精, which means "wicked, vicious spirit". It doesn't automatically translate to something like Tinkerbell in anyways.

I think it's because of Sylveon that the "fairy" type is being negatively viewed by some. I once made a blog post on how Sylveon's design looks like those creatures from magical girl anime shows - and Sylveon just looks like it can fit in a show like Madoka Magica without any trouble at all. I think THAT's part of the problem why people seem to think the overall fairy-type is a bad idea because it looks so 'girly', 'magical-anime-ish', 'stupid-moe' (yes, I heard someone saying that somewhere). Sylveon's image kinda brought it on people. Look at the pictures in the spoiler and you'll see what I mean.

Spoiler

Pokemon itself isn't meant to be anything like those kinds of anime where girly girl magical fantasies are happening (I know Madoka isn't that kind of anime, but let's just go with the overall impression). Yet somehow, Sylveon's introduction kinda brought that on people because it's design just screams "Hey I'm MEANT to target the little girlies because I'm so cute and magical!". So people assume the fairy-type itself is all like that. And with the pokemons they introduced as fairy-types, it's not exactly doing anything to help get rid of that impression.

Jigglypuff - the pink cuddly singer.
Marill - the blue cuddly mouse.
Gardevoir - the guardian angel similar to those female elves you see in MMOs

They're all either very cute or feminine in appearance.

If they had actually introduced a pokemon like Mismagius as a fairy-type, then people might've had a different impression since Mismagius is actually a ghost-type that's more like an evil witch. Or introduce a trickster fairy pokemon that looks similar to Sabyele. If they keep introducing fairy-type pokemons that are cute or feminine, it's not going to do them much justice because no matter how we scream "FAIRIES AREN'T TINKERBELL!!", the impression won't go away easily.

The fairy-type isn't a bad idea - it's that they released girly-ish pokemons as fairy-types that made this whole debate, imo. We need some actual fairies that aren't cute/feminine. Personally, I'd be all for faires that look like trolls depicted in those Europeon folktales.

 

[Stratelier]

Nuclear- attacks using radiation. I can't think of any possible Pokémon at the moment.

Er, yeah, I'm sure that will go over real well with the Japanese audience, what with your Hiroshima memorials and a broken power plant.... the only thing good that came out of that was Godzilla.

Rumor says Fairy is SE against Dark. I'll only believe that in advance if Dark is also SE against Fairy.

I don't think so, if it was, Gardevoir would've more than likely OHKO'd Hydreigon in this clip.

That's been discussed at length over in the other Fairy thread, and I agree. Even if Fairy Wind is just the Fairy version of Gust/Twister, then Fairy as an element is almost guaranteed to be Normal on Dark.

The change that made Outrage ridiculous wasn't turning it physical. It was giving it 120 base power.

So instead of being the Dragon version of Thunderbolt it's now the Dragon version of Thunder. Note however that the boosted power wasn't unique to Outrage; GF did it for Thrash and Petal Dance too.

But a 120 base power move with STAB and Dragon Dance makes it worth it since very few things resist it.

In G3, one Dragon Dance + Outrage combo hits with an effective power of 90.
In G4, the same combo hits with an effective power of 180 (due to the boost in Physical attack), literally twice as much.

Ow.

But on the bright side, there are a lot more status moves for physical attack/defense than there are for Special attack/defense . . . one Charm and you've just cut that Outrage by half. (Assuming you can live long enough to actually execute it.)