Which female protagonists win over Ash felt more justified to you?

[Cybersai]

Of the 4 female protagonists, both Misty and Iris beat Ash in a tournament. May tied with Ash in the final AG contest of Sceptile Vs. Blaziken and as far as I remember, Dawn's never beaten Ash in a battle tournament.

Misty beat Ash in the Whirl Cup back in Johto. Her win was decided because Psyduck got a headache and beat Kingler. For some reason the writers played up Ash's stupidity in this battle, and had him forget that if Psyduck's skull was squeezed by a pincer he would get a headache, despite seeing this countless times before. So Misty did beat Ash, but instead of a proper battle, it was another one of Psyduck's dues-ex moments.

Iris beats Ash in the finals of the Don battle tournament, with Excadrill Vs. Pikachu. And since that's finally aired in the dub, let us discuss.


Which win do you think was more justified? Misty beating Ash with Psyduck in the Whirl Cup, or Iris beat Ash with Excadrill?

 

[Moe]

I wouldn't call either cheap - they are just both examples of Ash being an idiot. Surely by the time of the Whirl Cup he had seen Psyduck enough to know not to use physical attacks like that and he should have known better than to use Pikachu against Iris because of how poorly the types are against him. Sure type doesn't matter to Ash, but against every one of Iris' Pokemon he had no type advantages with Pikachu.

Considering how far along the Whirl Cup was in his time with Misty, it's probably less forgiveable for him to still have stuffed things up compared to Iris being 40 episodes in. Likewise, Excadrill is well established as a good battler, something Psyduck certainly wasn't.

Of course, storyline wise it was more justified for Misty to win, Ash shouldn't have won in a water battle; whereas it's more debatable over whether Iris needed the win in the Don Battle. So I suppose I lean towards Misty's as having been worse in theory, but more important for her to have happened.

I would add that Misty's cheapest battle win was using Togepi against Pikachu when fighting over Totodile.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

They both justified.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Answer is quite simple and the only right one,they were both justified.

Misty win over Ash in Whirl Cup was completely valid and fairly won.In first round Poliwhirl beat Totodile by skill showing how she has knowledge and skill required to beat Ash,while in second Kingler turn the tables.After that Misty attempted to use Corsola(most useful choice in that situation)to get things in her favor with Psyduck randomly popping out of pokeball winning by confusion caused by headache.As its known Psyduck powers are big enough to blow away opponent by single hit,so its not surprising why Kingler dint stood a chance once his hidden power came on surface.

Ash lost because of being stupid enough to forget about Psyduck headache(happens quite often with him),using worst possible strategy.Misty didnt,she only took advantage out of situation rightfully winning.
In anime Misty was always more knowledgeable and skilled than Ash was when it comes to water types and battling in her own element having better success there.This can be evidenced in doing better in Seaking contest,Alto Mare race,Whirl Cup,when battling underwater vs Dorian etc.being more adapted and resourceful in this type of situations.

So with no further add,Misty showed more skill in that match than Ash did rightfully winning.

With Iris to be bluntly honest,everything was working in her favor winning over Ash in justified manner.First of all it was showed how she isnt beginner when joining him on journey at all having big amount of wins under her belt when she was much younger,training and battling with Excadrill other trainers for years.That right there shows how Ash was up against skilled and already capable opponent.

Another circumstance which worked in Iris favor was fact that she had huge type advantage over already toned down in power Pikachu(thanks to cheapo Zekrom excuse),with mole thanks to ground and steel characteristics having great defense vs electric types with Pikachu only effective moves being iron tail and to smaller extent quick attack.Not to mention Excadrill proved to have big offensive power with drill run,focus blast and metal claw providing big discrepancy in power level between two pokemon.

Some could say things were served on silver plate,but speaking for battle itself Iris won over Ash fairly.

p.s.I cant vote because poll doesnt have this option.

 

[Iteru]

Choosing between two people's matches = Contest thread. Thus, I've moved it to the Grand Festival. Remember to start giving reasons for your votes.

 

[FinalArcadia]

I think Iris's win over Ash was more justified, because Excadrill didn't really use any shady tricks or anything. And while it was a bit convenient that Ash chose Pikachu to fight against Iris's Ground-type, it also didn't seem to be too much of an obvious "gimme-me" win for Iris. I mean, Ash does have a habit of sending Pikachu out last, and has for quite some time.

Now, if it had been Iris's AXEW that beat Pikachu, then I'd have a problem. The way Axew beat Luke's Gollett really, really irritated me and seemed cheap. If Misty had won with anyone other than Psyduck, I might say her win was more justified, but Psyduck's powers were often used for comic relief. That those powers beat Ash... eh, it kind of diminshes the value of Misty's win. For me, anyway.

 

[Miar]

Psyduck's wins... What else could Ash do? Not fight? Then there'd be a rule declaring that someone would have to move or they'd both lose, or something. I just know it.

Iris's was very justified. She guessed Ash would use Pikachu (or he sent it out first, I forgot), and type advantage played its part. "Aim for the horn" no longer applies, so Pikachu literally had no chance.
The result was as predictable as it would be in the games.

 

[Bouffalant Herdier]

They were both cheap and tailored to give the female the win.

Misty would naturally have an advantage in Whirl Cup, and the battle was fine until Ash ordered an attack on Psyduck's head and helped her win. Ash always isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but surely he would have realized by this point that giving Psyduck a headache is a bad idea? Even worse, unless I'm forgetting something, (it has been years since I saw the Johto episodes) this was their final showdown, so he never got to have another rematch against her and retain glory. Come to think of it, did he ever win an uninterrupted full-battle against her? How annoying.

Although it made sense for Iris to win her battle against Ash with her Excadrill's type advantage over his Pikachu, she shouldn't have been in the Don Battle tournament finals to begin with, considering her attitude and ego, Emolga's obedience problems vanishing into to thin air and Axew learning advanced attacks out of nowhere in the previous battles. At least Ash will probably get a chance for "revenge" later on in the series, but I hope this doesn't take too long to happen.

 

[Masurao]

Come to think of it, did he ever win an uninterrupted full-battle against her? How annoying.

He defeated her in the 3 v 3 battle they had for Totodile. This took place prior to their Wallace Cup battle.

 

[Caseydia]

Whirl Cup was good. Both battled good and no hold backs. But the Don battle is still hurting my nerves.

 

[Araragi-hakase]

Any time Kasumi managed to pull off a win with Koduck was incredibly cheap and obviously tailored to her win, especially when most of the time she didn't mean for him to be her chosen Pokemon. In the same vain, you could say it wasn't the best move on Satoshi's part to use Vice Grip when he knew Koduck's headache triggers. Overall it just seemed too obviously tailored in Kasumi's direction, lapse of judgement on Satoshi's part or not.

The battle with Iris, (who making it that far in the tournament to begin with was a stroke of luck) was more entertaining to watch, at least. Knowing her past struggles with Doryuzu gave the battle a bit more emotion, but the huge type advantage just seemed like an obvious pull for Iris from the second both of the pokemon selections were revealed.

I still wouldn't call either of them 'justified' though. Both of them just seemed like a series of blatant coincidences in Iris/Kasumi's favor, even given the different set of rules for each one.

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

When Misty uses Psyduck, you can safely say that its going to end in cheap victory for her or its gonna fail spectacularly.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Misty win over Ash in Whirl Cup was anything but unjustified.She didnt made any cardinal mistake in that battle and fact that she beat Ash Totodile easily with Poliwhirl showed how she had required skill to win over Ash.Against Kingler she was going to play safe using Cprsola,but Psyduck ruined momentum jumping from pokeball during most important moment.

Regardless of this setback,it wasnt her fault that Ash as idiot as always forgot Psyduck headache using physical move.On contrary unlike Ash she was smart enough to know Psyduck hidden power and how to bring it on surface utilizing unfavorable spot she was put in in best possible way.Thats quality of good trainers being able to think fast,evaluate possible risk and be resourceful.

I guess writers on purpose throw Psyduck in match between them to bring comedy and some tension in their clash.We all know if Psyduck didnt popped out Misty would win either way with Corsola being more than capable to do job well.She proved that when defeating Quilfish and Gyarados having tricks which would give her an edge compared to Poliwhirl who was caught unprepared.

Ash always isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but surely he would have realized by this point that giving Psyduck a headache is a bad idea?

Ash forget this kind of things all the time so its more part of his character really than plot device.For same reason he tried to catch Treecko back in AG without weakening it first,did this mistake at start of Unova,send Phanphy against Pryce Dewgong in first battle forgetting how ground is weak vs ice etc.

Even worse, unless I'm forgetting something, (it has been years since I saw the Johto episodes) this was their final showdown, so he never got to have another rematch against her and retain glory. Come to think of it, did he ever win an uninterrupted full-battle against her? How annoying.

I would definitely welcome another battle between this two now that both became stronger to solve unfinished business once and for all.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I think that both battles were cheap and made to give the female characters the win. With Misty, she only won because of Psyduck's psychic powers, which Ash for some reason forgot about when he launched his attack. She didn't even choose Psyduck for that battle, just like in almost all of its other battles, and I still find it rather cheap that she was only able to defeat Ash with her Psyduck's deus ex machina powers. I don't mind the idea of Misty beating Ash, but it was due to luck, rather than actual skill. Maybe if she actually used Corsola like she wanted to, she would have been able to show more skill instead of catching a lucky break with Ash attacking Psyduck's head.

While I can see why people would say that Iris' win is more justified since she did have a pretty significant type advantage, I still think it was cheap since her last two victories were handed to her. I thought that she should have lost against Sawk, if only because I thought Emolga had already taken a lot of damage from its Fighting type attacks despite being part Flying type. She definitely should have lost to Luke at least given how she was just screaming "Axew! No!" for the bulk of the match, clearly had no idea how to defeat Golett and then having everything work out for her, despite her lack of training and these skills that the writers apparently want their audience to believe without remembering how inactive/lazy she has been for the bulk of the series, by learning Outrage out of nowhere. It's really because of how her previous victories were so cheap and unbelievable that made her victory against Ash felt cheap and like the writers were just giving Iris her victories, as opposed to Iris actually earning those victories through her own skills in a believable fashion.

 

[Sweet Veil]

While, I've never been a fan of Misty's. I'm just going to say here and now that win was very justified. Ash had known about Misty's Psyduck well and long enough to know how to deal with it in a battle, and had known whenever it got a headache it could unleash some pretty wicked powers. Now, does any remember this pic?

It's back from the Kanto episode, where Misty got her Togepi. Ash relises attacking Psyduck or hitting it's head with something like Vine Whip would cause it get an headache, so instead of attacking the dang duck. He had Bulbasaur use it's Vine Whip to Tickle Psyduck, then had it lick Psyduck into a laughing submission. Beating, Psyduck and keeping it from being able to battle.

TAKE TWO!

At the Whirlcup, Ash is about to take on Misty using Kingler. Misty is embarassed because her Psyduck can't swim, and everybody relizes it. Ash has his Kingler show off it's swimming abilities. So, instead of launching a long range attack at Psyduck, he had to be a show off and had Kingler use a "Vicegrip" attack, and right to the head of course. This of course agravated Psyduck and caused it send Kingler flying with a high power "Confusion" and defeated Kingler.

In the sense of Iris's win with Axew, I'm not even going to get into that because this is about Excadrill's battle and not Axew's. But, Excadrill's win was justified. If Ash knew Iris would use Excadrill you would think he would use Snivy, have Snivy Attract Excadrill and defeat it, or you would think he would use Palpitoad at least since it has a double advantage over Iris's mole. But, of course he stuck to his guns and used Pikachu and Pikachu was rightly slaughted in that battle, I'm tired of seeing Ash win in battles with the type advantages against him via some shoddy technique or luck, like Snivy beating Pawniard or Oshawott being Pansage so I'm actually not too hung up over that loss in his favor and over course being an Excadrill Iron Tail and Quick did half there normal damage, which is weird since those attacks still sent Excadrill flying.

 

[Cybersai]

That's the reason some people didn't like it. The writers purposely made Ash "forget" how to not attack Psyduck's head, as seen in that previous episode, just so they can set up him to lose.

Psyduck had used its psychic powers what...maybe 15 times by the time we got to the Whirl Cup in late Johto? He had seen it so much.

 

[Sweet Veil]

Obviously, Ash didn't completely forget. He just got a bit arrogant and tried to show off, Kingler swimming and how Psyduck can't swim. And he just "went with it" with a physical attack. And it backfired on him for being arrogant, I guess.

 

[Masurao]

I found both cheap honestly, but for different reasons. While I understand the writers wanting Misty to beat Ash in her own field, they could have executed it in a much better fashion. Having her win because Psyduck came through for her, doesn't really say much about her skill as a Water Trainer. Ash was just horribly infected with PIS, so Misty could get a win against him.

With Iris, yes it was a "legit" win, however Iris' victories matches before-hand just put Ash in a terrible position. I wouldn't just call Iris' victory against Ash cheap, but her whole progress in the tournament cheap. I'm sure it's been repeated ad nauseam as to why said progress was cheap, so I won't go into that any further. When you have a final match-up where one of the competitors is written at a type-disadvantage, while at the same time restricting their move-set there is clear favoritism going on. I also found it extremely odd that the entire tournament was served just to get Iris, and Ash to battle. Her win against him, just seemed used as a means to keep their dynamics the same.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

That's the reason some people didn't like it. The writers purposely made Ash "forget" how to not attack Psyduck's head, as seen in that previous episode, just so they can set up him to lose.

Like i said Ash was always reckless and forgettable about this things.How many times he forgot about type advantage,older pokemon he already met just to look up in pokedex forgetting he saw them already etc.

Either way if Ash won it would not only make Misty look bad as water trainer but it would also seem ultimately cheap and forced ,because she was robbed of having fair chance in that battle not wanting to use Psyduck.

I found both cheap honestly, but for different reasons. While I understand the writers wanting Misty to beat Ash in her own field, they could have executed it in a much better fashion. Having her win because Psyduck came through for her, doesn't really say much about her skill as a Water Trainer. Ash was just horribly infected with PIS, so Misty could get a win against him.

Im not sure why is only Psyduck taken in account to evaluate if she had required strength,because prior to that Misty already showed when defeating Totodile how she has skill and knowledge to confront Ash and beat him.If she used Corsola like she intended to,i gather she would probably defeat Kingler whose long distance attacks would be effectively countered with mirror coat being followed with spike cannon which showed to be powerful attack knocking down Trinity Gyarados with one blow.

Performance vs Harrison,Trinity and taking advantage of situation when battling Ash showed she made progress as trainer compared to early days.

Whether Iris or Misty wins felt cheap for some or not,they still won in legit manner imo being entertaining to watch.With Misty considering she proved to be better organized when it comes to water types along with Ash being stupid enough to forget about Psyduck hidden powers he deserved to lose,while with Iris it was pretty much obvious how Pikachu didnt had much chance(if any)at that point to confront Excadrill who had years of experience and big type advantage.
Years of training and battling,bigger strength and 3 of 4 Pikachu attacks not being effective spelled defeat for Ash in that match already from start.

 

[투 애니원]

They were both cheap and tailored to give the female the win.

Misty would naturally have an advantage in Whirl Cup, and the battle was fine until Ash ordered an attack on Psyduck's head and helped her win. Ash always isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but surely he would have realized by this point that giving Psyduck a headache is a bad idea? Even worse, unless I'm forgetting something, (it has been years since I saw the Johto episodes) this was their final showdown, so he never got to have another rematch against her and retain glory. Come to think of it, did he ever win an uninterrupted full-battle against her? How annoying.

Although it made sense for Iris to win her battle against Ash with her Excadrill's type advantage over his Pikachu, she shouldn't have been in the Don Battle tournament finals to begin with, considering her attitude and ego, Emolga's obedience problems vanishing into to thin air and Axew learning advanced attacks out of nowhere in the previous battles. At least Ash will probably get a chance for "revenge" later on in the series, but I hope this doesn't take too long to happen.

So only nice people end up in the finals?