Mafia Fire in the Garden: Kanto Starters Mafia: Endgame, Bulbasaur Victory

[TheCapsFan]

This post doesn't feel like town caps to me. Just feels a bit...forced? I know it is because the question of who's scum that early is impossible to answer, but I dunno just feels like it comes from a scum Caps mindset.

What about it feels forced? You did just explain yourself out of why there's no point in scumreading this.

Same thing I told Zexy earlier in this post
Also, why does no one mention the interaction with Pikochu?

Taking the post out of context. Pikochu wants Lich to analyze the kill (presumably if Lich does this, Piko will townread them more). I am asking Pikochu how it benefits Lich to analyze the kill when the analysis is either based on stuff that Pikochu thinks doesn't matter, or stuff that involves me, and Lich already scumreads me. Point is, it's a weird thing to want more out of Lich for, especially given Pikochu's prior statements.

I didn't realize that Pikochu and dd had an interaction.

...what? He's already stated multiple times that he thinks it's weird that you seem to piggyback him, how is he guiding you if he calls you out for following him?

Thank you.

So what are you thoughts on Zexy asking you about who you want to be the lynching wagons then?

Didn't like it, I already mentioned that in a later post I think. Something like "it's stupid to force wagons on people, they should just vote for whom they think is scum."

Problem is, I thought Caps was also smart enough to catch on to this connection and stage it too.

I think I have mentioned this before. And it's wifom. But if I am scum, you or mido die night 1.

For the record though I guessed that Lich, Jaison, and Wissen might have known each other, but I didn't make the connection with dawn dusk.

I will be honest I am a bit confused about the whole discussion around the kill, and this might come out a bit strange, but from my perspective as town, Lich as scum makes a lot of sense now if I sort of combine Zexy's angleshooting and Raven's analysis of the kill. If Lich is scum and knows dd then it makes sense that they would kill dd. Furthermore it makes me look bad since the person who died is someone that was kinda sussing me. And scum!Lich could have used that opportunity to try and push more on me this phase. He hasn't really done that through a vote but he has pushed the idea of me and Zexy as scumbuds, so tangentially he kind of has. But I'm not even sure it's kosher to combine Zexy and Raven's arguments in the way I just did. And honestly I really do believe that kill analysis is pointless most of the time.

I am all sorts of confused about what to think about this situation though. I am going to ignore it for now and focus on Pikochu vs Zexy and will go take a look at what Mido said about Zexy next.

Anyway, I am not as sure about the LICH case as the Piko case. LICH is something I would only bring up again after the Piko flip and it will be based on interactions with Piko that time, not meta stuff

And of course I read this right after I type the above.

 

[TheCapsFan]

Was that last part joking? Because if not this seems like scum trying to push an agenda. Lol.

Yes and no. It was sarcastic but I did believe in following the finger of suspicion.

This plan is...shit. Sorry, but in this case you would lynch Wissen first, not Jaison. Like there's literally no reason to lynch Jaison if you feel like Wissen has slipped or is talking out of his ass. You lynch Wissen to confirm which it is.

I've already explained my reasoning for why I wanted jaison over wissen. it was partially biased due to the rulebreaking and I will admit to being a bit frozen after DW's clarification. It's a valid reason to scumread me IMO.

Eh, don't really like these points. It's so easy for people to just say "I voted because they were inactive" and that gives you no read into whether they're scum or town. Since both will do that.

You can combine that reasoning with their future votes and posts. but I get your point.

 

[TheCapsFan]

I need to step away, when I get back I will look at Mido's case on Zexy.

 

[Pikochu]

Before I go ahead and start scanning the thread, just wanna address this:

Yeah, I really wanna assume good faith, I know people can be busy... But this is also convenient.

I understand it looks convenient and yada yada yada. You don't need to take that into consideration in terms of my alignment. I'm being transparent as to why I didn't post as I planned to and why I was gone yesterday from the game. My absence is not game related.

 

[Pikochu]

Now I want to know why he wants to avoid talking about rvs.

As I stated in here, I stated that is there any more to gain from analyzing RVS at that point, which I thought there isn't.

So I disagree with Pikos analysis of them. They don’t seem like a mess, just struggling with language maybe.

Honestly, coming back with much more clear state of mind, I got overwhelmed with what was going on, got confused and did not know that I was confused. Got confused to the point where I had trouble using basic terms like "parroting."

For the record, Snowy 1.0, the intended meaning was sheeping. Any other terms that I was missing?

Why? Why can’t we have them now?

At the time, I thought there was too much emphasis from ExLight on Day One to figure out of the mechanics of the game and the lack of analysis about what has happened from ExLight at the time really raised a red flag.

Why not? You’ve given no reason why it isn’t compatible.

My thoughts on the incompatibility (which came from "or I can do what I have been doing and discuss the setup to optimize our odds", see here on trying to find certainty rather than analysis of the player. Reading that post again in a much clearer state, I noticed that I haven't seen the second part ("in attempt of finding a contraction") first time around. Putting those two parts together now makes much more sense in that context that I should have seen earlier.

[More coming up]

 

[Minish]

I doubt I will catch up before EOD. Especially since there seems to be a lot of wall posts. So going off of limited info here but I feel like it's not a bad vote...

Vote: Pikachu

Honestly, tied wagons before EOD would be nice.

 

[Minish]

Damn autocorrect.

Vote: Pikochu

 

[TheCapsFan]

Other way around would sound suspicious. And the above quote of his sounds more like he knows who.

Vote: Zexy

Initial vote separate from the case, based on Zexy not saying who visited him. Not really going to count this as part of the case, but I still don't understand why this is scummy especially if he thinks they are more than likely to be town.

And regardless of whom it actually is, how Zexy is reading them, and regardless of Zexy's alignment I still think Zexy's visitor is mathematically more likely to be town.

So you think voting and making a case on a hunch is a good ideas after the last one that failed spectacularly?

Fair question. Especially now that we know it was based on an angleshot.

If you’re reluctant then why? If you’re reluctant then you shouldn’t be voting them since it means you’re not confident.

Reason is because it's an angleshot.

Wasn’t LICH mafia just a few posts ago, now they’re just a scapegoat?

I think this misconstrues what Zexy says a bit; he says "either they're scum or they're getting framed." Not discounting the idea Lich might be scum.

Zexy's reasoning for the vote can be (and is) weird, but I think this specific part is progression (or attempts to progress on a weird reason)

…now Wissen is a troll but not yesterday?

Regardless of what you think of the jaison lynch, now that jaison is confirmed to be town, we can 100% affirm that wissen was trolling regardless of Wissen's alignment.

And now they’re both scum again. One second they’re a scapegoat and troll and then they’re scum. Real consistent.

Disagree that the Lich reasoning was inconsistent. Agree the wissen reasoning was inconsistent.

Why do you question this now when you were fine doing just that yesterday?

To be fair, Zexy was voting for jaison, and jaison did show up and vote, so jaison would have had a chance to claim. but it's unreasonable to expect jaison to come back and claim given his activity. so this is a good point.

Since when is 1 vote any pressure? I also don’t like that “maybe later in the phase” and the fear of having more than one vote on snowy. As though you’re confident he’ll be lynched.

1 vote is not pressure, agreed. Agreed also that it's weird he just drops the case on lich. Maybe he realized it was based on weird reasoning outside of angleshooting and needed to pivot somewhere. I dunno why he doesn't vote for snowy here. Personally I would have preferred ExLight gets pressured at this point in time but given that Snowy already had one vote and also needed pressure Snowy is the right choice to vote. I have some tinfoil thoughts about this too but I think they're unfair so I'm not gonna say them.

It never held up in the first place. But it does hold evidence of you as mafia. And you trying to get the topic to stop means you don’t want people analyzing your conjecture theory.

It also holds evidence I could be mafia too, but that has been shoved under the rug.

This is consistent with your other arguments of people being scum for people trying to get others to stop discussing things. Makes sense to me.

I do think at this point that topic has been talked about to death but I won't disagree that it's a valid reason for me and Zexy to be scumread.

can’t remember why I originally quoted this but matching it with Zexy not wanting to pressure snowy definitely makes them look very buddy buddy.

It's possible. I wrote this off because I didn't really agree with the whole "Snowy is parroting Zexy" thing but looking at it the other direction, yeah, it's possible.

And you didn’t think that was suspicious yesterday? Especially after what I pointed out about Raven? Wouldn’t it make sense to push him on the fact that he wants to lynch inactives but blatantly ignores one?

Fits in well with the argument against Zexy's pressure strategy

What mistake did I make? I’m not the one that lynched a townie based on ridiculous conjecture. My record is clear.

This is, accurate enough, yeah.

He’s straight up contradicting himself, and is spouting stuff but being non committal. I also wouldn’t be surprised if him and snowy are scum buddies with how they are acting.

There is some inconsistency with how Zexy treats wissen. Zexy has been noncommittal especially in his attempts to pressure. And I do think it is odd that Zexy didn't vote Snowy. There could be something there if Zexy is scum.

 

[TheCapsFan]

Damn autocorrect.

Vote: Pikochu

Spoiler

Man, reading this after what I just posted gives me serious pause.

 

[ExLight]

You just said that you thought gentlefeather's not-vote guaranteed a mislynch, and now you're saying that gentlefeather's not-vote changes nothing in that day's lynch.

I think I understand your point but it's worded hella weird.

I did not say that. If you didn't understand what I said ask me to clarify instead of putting words on my mouth.
I said that I though her attempt of vote was townie, because I don't think scum comes out of nowhere and tries to pile up on mislynch in a case like that where a mislynch was already decided through an extra vote that would do nothing but attract attention.

 

[Pikochu]

328, party is over. Piko has the 2 most active townies votes on him, I only have one... Everyone needs to gang up on Zexy now else boom

What? I mean what?

Is this really just a joke or are you hiding an actual thought behind a joking appearance?

Was meant to be a joke vote.

Piko does not say "Snowy null" in the spoiler. He says he has "serious red flags" on Snowy. I interpreted this as Piko having a scumread on Snowy and this is interpretation is kind of central to my initial vote.

The reason why I voted Snowy (before he got subbed out) because given that he has played Mafia before, I felt that he had more than adequate opportunities to contribute at that point. And yes, I realized the irony now and again, I should have known better not to do such a thing without at least pointing out the inactivity. Snowy would have then gotten a chance to explain his absence and we would have at least be done with it now.

Another example of me being confused without knowing I was confused.

 

[ExLight]

Unvote

I'm not confident enough in my vote anymore.

why not?

 

[Zexy]

Unvote

I'm not confident enough in my vote anymore.

I am very glad for this. Not so much because I am no longer the top lynch candidate (as bad as it sounds, I would prefer being mislynched than no lynch), as much as that the votes are tied again, which (if Piko scum) pressures his buddies to either look bad saving him or bus him.

I doubt I will catch up before EOD. Especially since there seems to be a lot of wall posts. So going off of limited info here but I feel like it's not a bad vote...

Vote: Pikachu

Honestly, tied wagons before EOD would be nice.

With this the wagons are not tied, it is Piko 4 Zexy 3

To be fair, Zexy was voting for jaison, and jaison did show up and vote, so jaison would have had a chance to claim. but it's unreasonable to expect jaison to come back and claim given his activity. so this is a good point.

Claim what? It was d1, everyone was vanilla

1 vote is not pressure, agreed. Agreed also that it's weird he just drops the case on lich. Maybe he realized it was based on weird reasoning outside of angleshooting and needed to pivot somewhere. I dunno why he doesn't vote for snowy here. Personally I would have preferred ExLight gets pressured at this point in time but given that Snowy already had one vote and also needed pressure Snowy is the right choice to vote. I have some tinfoil thoughts about this too but I think they're unfair so I'm not gonna say them.

The actual reason I dropped it was because the way LICH replied did not give me much substance to keep pushing at the time. I did not vote for Snowy because I felt his inactivity was NAI at the time (but I do town read that slot hard after what Mido and Piko have done). ExLight felt more sus than Snowy, again because their kind of activity could be scum feigning contribution when most of the talk was just set up. Snowy did feel genuine busy.

Also, please feel free to share your tinfoils. The situation is bad, I may be getting lynched in an hour and a bit, any point for or against me matters. Even if it is an angleshot. Just please don't make it something like "Zexy asked his buddy Snowy to sub out" because trust me I have thought that way too already.

There is some inconsistency with how Zexy treats wissen. Zexy has been noncommittal especially in his attempts to pressure. And I do think it is odd that Zexy didn't vote Snowy. There could be something there if Zexy is scum.

The main reason I do not want to say much about wissen is that Elie holds the slot now and he is the kind of player that can solve games HARD and I do not want to get on his bad side first thing he sees when the he catches up, I already have Mido clawing at my throat.

Problem is, Elie is apparently super busy too and has not done much. This was not something I expected back when I wanted to avoid commiting on wissen.

 

[TheCapsFan]

Seriously? Have I really not made my thoughts clear? Are you blatantly ignoring everything I’ve said since d1?

Let me try to interpret - you don't want to make reads on the inactives because you don't think it's worth doing, you'd rather analyze based on what's in thread.

Zexy's defense (don't want to get too far into it now because I am running out of free time)

Whatever, I will TLDR my defense with two points
1) why not target Snowy instead first if you are so sure we are buddies, considering Snowy has one more vote than I have?
2) why do you hold the supposed contradiction about jaison against me so much when Caps advocated for that lynch too? And in general, why drop the rather bold case on Caps yesterday? You have not made any progress on that front today

1) can be easily explained by what i literally just said in the quote above
2) is a valid point, but is deflecting.

Also me and mido scumbuddies lolololol. that is out of left field.

@Zexy stop lying and trying to turn my case into something it is not. I noted something interesting about you and Snowy and said it’s a possibility but it is not my case. My case is the fact that you’re inconsistent and I’ll add on that you keep trying to turn evidence against you into evidence against others or get them to disregard it. My whole post was strictly posts from this day phase not day one. Yet you ignored me pointing out how full of it you are.

Unvote:
Vote Zexy x infinity

He’s now so desperate he’s trying to hide my case in him and get me lynched. It’s funny actually.

I can see the deflections. I would argue that the points about Zexy x Snowy are one part of your case but not the whole thing, rather than just a "possibility" but I won't put words in your mouth. There are some inconsistencies. This is a valid case.

Saying that he is trying to get you lynched is pretty farfetch'd though. He is voting Pikochu and hasn't expressed that he wants to lynch you today. Unless i missed it somewhere. That was also the bold part of his second defense that i skimmed, and I agree with that.

 

[TheCapsFan]

Claim what? It was d1, everyone was vanilla

Oh, true.

The actual reason I dropped it was because the way LICH replied did not give me much substance to keep pushing at the time. I did not vote for Snowy because I felt his inactivity was NAI at the time (but I do town read that slot hard after what Mido and Piko have done). ExLight felt more sus than Snowy, again because their kind of activity could be scum feigning contribution when most of the talk was just set up. Snowy did feel genuine busy.

Also, please feel free to share your tinfoils. The situation is bad, I may be getting lynched in an hour and a bit, any point for or against me matters. Even if it is an angleshot. Just please don't make it something like "Zexy asked his buddy Snowy to sub out" because trust me I have thought that way too already.

What do you think of raven's tinfoil that Snowy slipped and tried to cover it up?

My tinfoil is not quite that though could be tangentially related? idk. It's that I have a meta read on Snowy that he subs out a lot when he is mafia. But I think this is an unfair read to make because I know Snowy is going through a lot right now and could have been genuinely busy. And general mafia rule is not to discuss sub-outs. Despite all of this though I do still think there is reason to believe that you and that slot could be buddies. Minish's vote on Pikochu to break the tie does not help that suspicion.

 

[TheCapsFan]

The main reason I do not want to say much about wissen is that Elie holds the slot now and he is the kind of player that can solve games HARD and I do not want to get on his bad side first thing he sees when the he catches up, I already have Mido clawing at my throat.

Problem is, Elie is apparently super busy too and has not done much. This was not something I expected back when I wanted to avoid commiting on wissen.

Eh, kinda wifom imo.

 

[Zexy]

What? I mean what?

I was trying to make the case on the mindset that you were desperate scum at the time, give a sort of emotional insight on how you would act later. If you see further my case on you makes much mention of your exclamation marks and capital letters etc.

The reason why I voted Snowy (before he got subbed out) because given that he has played Mafia before, I felt that he had more than adequate opportunities to contribute at that point. And yes, I realized the irony now and again, I should have known better not to do such a thing without at least pointing out the inactivity. Snowy would have then gotten a chance to explain his absence and we would have at least be done with it now.

Another example of me being confused without knowing I was confused.

Except he was busy and said he was busy and you held that against him, but you do not like me holding that against you.

The whole thing "I was confused without knowing I was confused" is getting a bit old. I was VERY confused too, but I knew I was, I would point out all the time when people would call me jumpy way before I got wagoned, I did point it out whenever Caps asked me why I agree with him, I was like "I don't even know what is going on yet man, just saw your post and it all makes sense", in fact I did admit that I was so confused that Caps could have capitalized (pun intended!) on my confusion to leash me around on any case he wants (if scum) then let me get the slack.

Like, I did say many times I understand people have valid points calling me jumpy, I was jumpy, I did not have good arguments only "if X this Y that" and angleshots etc. I did say I was frustrated in the inactivity of some ppl in the thread, I did say I knew some of my posts are a formatting mess that even future me will look back at and CRINGE. HARD.

Point is, I was a super confused townie before I started seeing the case on you BUT I KNEW IT

How can you be confused but not know?!?!?!

 

[TheCapsFan]

I am out of time and won't be around for EOD.

Overall I think this is a very interesting D2. I see potential on both sides for both players to be scum, but little faith that both are scum, unfortunately. I think I am going to stick to my guns and stick with Pikochu. Though there are a ton of valid reasons to suspect Zexy, and additional other reasons that I have brought up about how he has treated my slot specifically this game, I think I trust in my case and will be sticking with my guns.

 

[Zexy]

Also me and mido scumbuddies lolololol. that is out of left field.

I did not mean it as you and Mido buddies. I meant it as Mido and Piko buddies realising a case on you will not work.

Saying it again. I do not want Mido lynched before Piko. Even if I flip, do not go Mido first because she is the one who began my case, go Piko again.

My tinfoil is not quite that though could be tangentially related? idk. It's that I have a meta read on Snowy that he subs out a lot when he is mafia. But I think this is an unfair read to make because I know Snowy is going through a lot right now and could have been genuinely busy. And general mafia rule is not to discuss sub-outs

I... did not know that. Ouch, can I maybe envision worlds where Piko Snowy are scum? Something to consider, I mean Minish could have seen the mess upon coming in and decide to bus.

What do you think of raven's tinfoil that Snowy slipped and tried to cover it up?

Just saw this. We need to consider it next phase.

 

[Zexy]

Votals

Pikochu (4) - TheCapsFan, Zexy, ExLight, Minish
Zexy (3) - Mint Elv, Pikochu, LICH KING